Threads Challenging Religion: Why???

originally posted by: Metallicus
The only group of people that I pity are Atheists.

how generously condescending of you

If you are experiencing God on your own then we have no disagreement.

as far as I can tell I have never experienced god - how could I when I am pretty sure no such thing exists?

a reply to: Boadicea

I've been accused of doing this but I always have a pro-religious theme as a solid undercurrent of the thread. My religious threads (when pertaining to Abrahamic faiths) are often challenges for Christians but they are never for the primary purpose of ridicule.

The reason is simple. We live in a quasi-theocracy. Our nation is still influenced heavily by the Christian right and many of the things that govern my life were put in place because of a person's religious beliefs that do not pertain to me. Take marriage equality, for example. Religion is the primary reason that gay people were excluded from contemporary marriage (and McCarthy era residual homophobia). There are numerous examples of how that one religion has oppressed and injected its values into our system and way of life, whether or not the rest of us like it.

Because of that. Because Christianity still has such an unconstitutionally substantial power over Americans, it is only natural to challenge what you believe and really get into why some of you believe in some things and some of you do not. To me, I'm hugely interested in how western Christianity has been co-opted by conservative politics in such bizarre ways.

But I think the biggest reason it gets the most critical threads is because it is the largest religion here. Demographically, it makes sense.

originally posted by: SachaX
a reply to: Boadicea

It riles my bones to have bible quotes thrown at me when I view those words about as high in the believable department as the smurfs...

Believe it or not, I can relate, and I think quite highly of the Bible and the wisdom therein. But sometimes the Bible verses thrown in my face are misunderstood or misconstrued into something so ugly, or sometimes they choose the most horrid passages to justify their position, that I cringe, and I wonder how and why they would make something so beautiful into something so ugly.

...and the fact that the author doesn't understand or is willing to accept that it is perfectly normal for others to view their religion that way.

Sadly, it's not just religion where people refuse to acknowledge or accept another opinion or position. But we're never going to get everyone to agree on anything. That's just how it is.

To stand there and say point blank that they are right and everyone is wrong is not good. To me, they are intolerant... [snip]...And so I step in and let people know there IS an alternative thought to their message.

To let the religious people know there's an alternative? Or others? Or both? I have a feeling that the most intolerant among the religious know better than anyone how many alternatives there are because they're constantly butting heads with them!!! In fact, pretty much everyone knows there are many many alternatives in religion and to religion. Do you offer specific alternatives? Do you offer your personal philosophy?

It is usually the most extreme ones who read the replies with emotion rather than intellect, and then snark back how nasty and "venomous" I am.

Yes, religion does tend to get the emotions raging on all sides.

God, angels, devils and superstitions are easy refutations, and some people just tend to prefer laziness and complacency to actual discovery. Religion bashing is presently en vogue in some places, just like it was way back in 18th century France, and people have a tendency towards conformity, group think and trend following.

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: Boadicea

Thank you for a very thoughtful response.

I venture to say that you've answered your own question put forth in the OP. ATS members for the most part are deep thinkers--or rather as they called us in Ben Franklin's day, "free thinkers"--that are not bound by a religious credo that we were taught if not discarded along the way to adulthood.

"Free Thinkers" -- yes, I like that. Very appropriate.

You make the mistake, so it seems in your wording, that religions are sacred and above being flatly rejected... [snip]...If you look deeply enough you may find that many of us harbor a personal type of a "cosmic consciousness" which you could call a religion. Maybe better described as a generalized personal morality.

Actually, no, I don't, so I'm sorry I gave that impression. Exactly the opposite in fact. I am a woman of strong faith and spirit, but I totally reject many organized religions, and have little use for others. Nor do I believe that one must have faith in any deity or religion to have a heart and a spirit. In fact, I find the spirituality -- or cosmic consciousness as you call it -- of the non-religious is much deeper and thoughtful than the most religious people. Where the former have given it much thought and consideration, giving them a much fuller understanding of who they are and who they want to be, the latter too often simply react reflexively out of fear or ignorance or even laziness.

It is not so much that we hate religions as it is that we don't need it/them coming from outside ourselves.

That's understandable; but then why invite it with a provocative thread? (not you personally)

The “religion” forums of ATS have so much conflict for a very simple reason.The amalgamation of all of a persons experience form their belief in faith of “their Belief System (BS) religion. Everyone's perception/belief is observed through their BS religion and is in conflict with everyone else’s BS. Some with more conflict , some less conflict however it is ALL a conflict because no ones perception of life is like anyone else’s BS.

The biggest cognitive dissonance is everyone thinks what they believe is truth when nothing could be further from the truth.Their belief is nothing more than their perception of the observations they make of their experiences.Their religious experience is in effect a science experiment performed in the dark by people that are blind, deaf and dumb.

The grande delusion of all religion is the construct of “God”.Most people do not have the knowledge of how the universe works at it’s most basic level yet they believe they can “know” of a being that is unfathomable.The fact is a belief in God is just that.. a belief and has nothing to do with facts and this is where the grande cognitive dissonance comes in…they believe they KNOW when in fact they know nothing.

That leads to the purpose of ATS religious forums.The majority(all) of threads are the epitome of ignorance.They believe they are sharing and enlightening others with their “knowledge” of the mystery’s of God when in fact it is all ignorance.It is like the old saying “how do you know when a politician is lying…....”The fact is all belief in God is complete ignorance of truth because it is impossible for a human to “know” a God through belief in faith of a Belief System religion.

It is one thing to believe you know how many hours it takes the earth to spin on it’s axis it is quite another to believe you know the creator of the earth through belief in faith of BS.Even the most brilliant scientist will confess that they know almost nothing of how the universe works because it is mostly theories of belief through faith (perception through observation).However I would trust a physicists belief in the standard model of an atom more than religious persons belief in God any day for a very good reason.One of them knows what they don’t know the other one doesn’t.

The religious forums threads of ATS are steaming hotbeds of ignorance.Every thread is an opportunity to deny the ignorance of man.There is no greater ignorance and delusion of man than the belief of “their God”(their religion).Those that propagate their BS religion as truth are in deep denial.The only thing someone can do is to deny their ignorance however they cannot do that truthfully by their own ignorance and that is the reason for all the conflict.It is in effect a Mexican standoff with none having a foot to stand on.

The reasonable thing to do is stop posting threads of unreality at ATS yet that will not happen because the function of ATS religious forums in it’s corner of the web is to showcase the great ignorance of man!The only religious conspiracy is in the mind of man.There is no God orchestrating an evangelical crusade to enlighten the world of their existence.Man cannot be enlightened by belief in a God of their BS religion because that God is THEMSELVES and they are completely deluded to reality.That is the only fact that can be known of a God..that everything you “believe” you know is completely false by it’s nature of religious belief through faith IN your BS religion.

If there is a creator God there is only one person they can “reveal/communicate” that to …and that is you.It is futile (and unwise) to try to convince anyone of that fact because none else can know it “through” you because it will only be your BS religion.It is a beautiful and elegant system of truth.It eliminates all religious belief and all mystical enlightenment of religion from being truth.

When the ATS religion forums and churches of the world close down and cease to exist and none speak anything of a God only then will there be a glimmer of evidence the creator God is being known by man.Until then belief in faith through their BS religion will dominate the illusion of life to mankind and conflict in all walks of life and in the religious forums of ATS will continue in a downward spiral of unreality.

a reply to: Boadicea

it seems to me a lot of the problems arise when members turn spirituality into a bread circus and god into a weapon of mass subjugation. if it upsets you to see threads deriding the politics of spirituality, then encourage your spiritual brethren to take their wayward fellows to task. otherwise, the rest of us will do it in your stead. just remember...

a reply to: Akragon

Why is your god a he? I would think the source of all would be non-gender.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Akragon

Why is your god a he? I would think the source of all would be non-gender.

Jesus called him "The Father"

I tend to side with him

a reply to: Cuervo

Yes, you're right -- Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion. Gay marriage has been denied on religious grounds, and special privileges have been granted to some for religious reasons.

There is good reason to speak up about that injustice, for personal, social, religious and political reasons. You can argue for equal rights and due process under the law without demanding nor expecting everyone to suddenly "approve" of gay marriage.

a reply to: Boadicea

Well, I try to keep my religious beliefs a very small part of the message by pointing out that my belief if their "source" is fiction to me. What I do attempt to do is to offer another viewpoint argument (such as the devil's advocate) or to show the fallacy in the argument that is presented.

I sometimes use silly examples and ask the author to think logically through my silly example and what conclusion would come from it from their point of view. I always want to make the silly example relevant in that it is not off base from an intellectual sort of way; that by using logic to said situation there should be a cognitive dissonance moment where the author would see the inherent problem with their original train of thought.

That is usually my goal. And sometimes I must preface things that will cause emotion to be felt through the words as to set up the point.

Aside from mentioning that wicca and new-age stuff isn't actually witchraft, I generally do not explain what my beliefs are, unless asked.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
God, angels, devils and superstitions are easy refutations, and some people just tend to prefer laziness and complacency to actual discovery. Religion bashing is presently en vogue in some places, just like it was way back in 18th century France, and people have a tendency towards conformity, group think and trend following.

That makes me said... but you're probably right... that's what makes me sad.

Let's hope those people are few and far between, and that they learn to do and be better.

a reply to: Boadicea

Why are there any threads challenging anything? All of it is up for debate. All of it is conjecture. Wanting to have faith in something or a belief in a specific theory is up to each soul. The human condition is so full of itself that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are confused about their opinions. Religion is just one topic.

When you have been raised to believe a certain way, it is natural to try and defend your upbringing or to rebel against it, eventually the inevitable happens and the veil is pulled back and there is another view to behold.

Religion has been and always will be a distraction. There are those that would rather there be dissension among the masses and what better way than to inflict religion on them. When you peel away the layers of skin deep deep down we all are connected and we all are created by source.

What is better, to believe in 20 different possible scenarios or to have a common ground?

In order for there to be a common ground all would need to put aside their religious beliefs that have been force fed to them and that just won't happen.

originally posted by: Rex282

The amalgamation of all of a persons experience form their belief in faith of “their Belief System (BS) religion. Everyone's perception/belief is observed through their BS religion and is in conflict with everyone else’s BS. Some with more conflict , some less conflict however it is ALL a conflict because no ones perception of life is like anyone else’s BS.

"BS" -- well played!

Even the most brilliant scientist will confess that they know almost nothing of how the universe works because it is mostly theories of belief through faith (perception through observation).However I would trust a physicists belief in the standard model of an atom more than religious persons belief in God any day for a very good reason.One of them knows what they don’t know the other one doesn’t.

To paraphrase: "Scientists know what they don't know." I like that.

The religious forums threads of ATS are steaming hotbeds of ignorance.Every thread is an opportunity to deny the ignorance of man.There is no greater ignorance and delusion of man than the belief of “their God”(their religion).

And the flip side of that coin is that every thread is an opportunity to enlighten man for there is no greater ignorance and delusion of man than their belief of "no God." Not trying to judge one way or another... just trying to look at it from different angles.

If there is a creator God there is only one person they can “reveal/communicate” that to …and that is you.It is futile (and unwise) to try to convince anyone of that fact because none else can know it “through” you...

That is so very very true. My faith and my spirit begins and ends within me....

a reply to: TzarChasm

it seems to me a lot of the problems arise when members turn spirituality into a bread circus and god into a weapon of mass subjugation.

I would agree... but I would also add that goes both ways.

(

if it upsets you to see threads deriding the politics of spirituality, then encourage your spiritual brethren to take their wayward fellows to task.

I have actually and they listen to me just about as much as they listen to you!

otherwise, the rest of us will do it in your stead.

Somehow I think you'll be doing that no matter what I do or don't do!

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
as far as I can tell I have never experienced god -

how could I when I am pretty sure no such thing exists?

A person cannot see that which he knows doesn't exist...

Ask, seek, and knock.

It's as simple as that.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
God doesn't lie either - but he veils the truth from those who consider themselves wise in their own eyes. Finding the truth is a matter of humility and the acceptance of our need for grace (nobody can be counted pure in the eyes of God... Perseverance in seeking the person of God is the key. If we knock, the door will be opened. After that, it's just a matter of time until he 'leads us into all truth' by the power of His Spirit.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
You are an open-minded sort of person, by the look of things! A rare thing in these days and times. I would advise you to pray a simple prayer, and see what happens. Test it out! Simply say: ''God, if you are real, would you reveal yourself to me in some way. I want to know the Truth...''

That's what I did ten years ago, and the very next day someone walked past me in the street, before stopping, turning back and pointing to me. She said: '"You've been praying. God answers prayer. Come with me...''

She was prompted by the still, small voice of calm, the voice of God's own Spirit, who lives with all believers, to be an intermediary between me and God, to prove His existence, so that I could answer the call of God, to give my life to Him.

I came to faith in Christ through her talking with me, and since that day God has shown me a thousand things that I would have no natural way of knowing. He does so in order to help us in real, practical and spiritual ways, and to help others to come to know Him. He desires for you to walk with Him, and to know His voice, and to bless your life in a million different ways.

Take it or leave it - but I hope you take it, in faith.

Ask, and you will receive. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you.

Don't bother with 'Droidus the spirit guide' (or others like him) - he has no answers for anyone; not even those who are devoted to him. God Himself will be your guide.

originally posted by: WeAllDieSoon
The nature of the Truth is that not everyone hears it.

The proof of God is everywhere. Creation itself is proof.

Knowing the Truth and proclaiming it is not pride. I can provide evidence, which I already have, but proof is something that comes from God.

The truth is either God revealed the truth or He didn't. The truth is you have been given the ability to seek the truth. Where there is smoke...

Me, I know because I spent years seeking. My God has revealed Himself to me. He does that after you seek Him. He does it because He said He would.

You can't know if I am telling the truth, though. That is because God designed your reality so that it is up to you, personally, to seek the truth. If you hear it, and believe it, you will seek God. And then you will know what I know.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
as far as I can tell I have never experienced god -

how could I when I am pretty sure no such thing exists?

A person cannot see that which he knows doesn't exist...

Yes..that's why I do not........

Ask, seek, and knock.

It's as simple as that.

Pffttt........lol

did that...no answer - no-one home.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Boadicea

Why are there any threads challenging anything? All of it is up for debate. All of it is conjecture.

Fair enough... and true enough!

There are those that would rather there be dissension among the masses and what better way than to inflict religion on them. When you peel away the layers of skin deep deep down we all are connected and we all are created by source.

What is better, to believe in 20 different possible scenarios or to have a common ground?

Yes -- [[ big heavy sigh ]] -- yes. Divide-and-conquer is alive and well.

In order for there to be a common ground all would need to put aside their religious beliefs that have been force fed to them and that just won't happen.

I used to think it was so easy... let people believe what they will and we all live our own conscience and all will be well... it just isn't that easy though.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Akragon

Why is your god a he? I would think the source of all would be non-gender.

Jesus called him "The Father"

I tend to side with him

...thats not much of an answer. or perhaps i should start referring to my star wars collection for details on the milky way galaxy?

originally posted by: SachaX
a reply to: Boadicea

What I do attempt to do is to offer another viewpoint argument (such as the devil's advocate) or to show the fallacy in the argument that is presented.

I sometimes use silly examples and ask the author to think logically through my silly example and what conclusion would come from it from their point of view.

Sometimes silly examples are a good way to make a point, while keeping it light, not personal. It's a good way to highlight a general principle or law of nature.