Are morality and ethics dead in the US?

Recently two posts on ATS have got me really thinking.

The first said that morality and ethics are dead
in the US, this was a pro-choice person supporting
abortion and told people in the thread that
abortion is fine because morality and ethics are dead.
Thing was, it wasn't a joke, the person really meant
it and really felt strongly pro-abortion, I could tell
from other posts by the same person.

The second was a person who said we have now
entered an era of ethics based on nature
and that nature should guide all our ethical decisions.
Very kittens, puppies, and rainbows.
I pointed out the real ethics of nature:
kill or be eaten; eat or be eaten
torture can be fun (cats)
kick people out of your group that don't belong, chase them away or kill them (racism)
All of these and many more behaviors are seen
repeatedly in nature and are ethical if we use
nature as our ethical guide.

Many on ATS have repeatedly said that religion should never, ever
in any form be used as a moral or ethical guideline
in the US, because the morals and ethics of
the religious are dangerous and outdated.
So that rules out all of the 10 Commandments
as a basis for morality and ethics:
so this necessarily means we must reject:
1Exodus 20: 3 No murder.
14 No adultery.
15 No stealing.
16 No lies about your neighbor.
17 No lusting after your neighbor’s house—
or wife or servant or maid or ox or donkey.
Don’t set your heart on anything that is your neighbor’s.

The prohibition against using religious morals or ethics
as many on ATS wish to do would also include:
Mark 12:31, straight from Jesus mouth - which makes
the saying completely heinous according to those
who wish to reject anything to do with religion.
‘Love others as well as you love yourself.’ There is no other commandment that ranks with these.”
(i.e. treat others with kindness and compassion)

Morality is: Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion, or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.

Ethics are: .
(used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles:
the ethics of a culture.
2.
(used with a plural verb) the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.:
medical ethics; Christian ethics.



Since people in the US can not agree on a standard
for morality or ethics,
is the first person right?
Are ethics and morality dead in the US?
Is there no standard or moral compass or
moral base in the US anymore?

Feelings about something are feathers in the
wind and can not count as a moral base,
we see often that feelings vary widely
from person to person at ATS about any and
all matters.

Situational ethics are not ethics at all
since they change with the blowing of the wind.

If something is moral in one context and
immoral in another context, then there is
no moral basis or ethical basis for the
belief in morality.

I will now bow out and come back tomorrow to
see what you all have to say.

I am really interested
to see this as one person has said that the US
is more moral than ever now that it has abandoned
all pretense at religious morality or ethics.
But I consistently see the same person using
situational ethics with no moral compass or
grounding or even sound reasoning.

Morals and ethics aren't necessarily entwined with religion, although many tenets of various religions are based on morality and ethics. My point being is the base ethics each of us enact daily are a necessity for a healthy society. We strive not to give into actions like murder, assault and stealing from others(just to name a few) to keep us from chaos. Outside of laws, contributing citizens to a healthy society share the belief of right vs wrong, and think nothing of making daily decisions influenced by the right side.

I do believe that we have become desensitized to murder, assault, and a lot of the wrong side listed above. Couple that with degrading self-responsibility, a lack of fear of repercussions for wrong decision making, and a me-me-me sense of self and you have the appearance of people that have lost situational ethics and their moral compass. Tolerance of others is another key issue to this discussion, but that topic is best left for another thread.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Since people in the US can not agree on a standard
for morality or ethics,
is the first person right?
Are ethics and morality dead in the US?
Is there no standard or moral compass or
moral base in the US anymore?

The answer to that is "Mob Rule" and "Political Correctness".

Whatever the mob decides is moral today is moral.

Whatever was moral yesterday is immoral tomorrow.


It is a complete rejection of God in a society which increasingly not only rejects morals but now persecutes those who would even mention them.


These are examples:



2 Timothy 3
Be sure of this. In the last days hard times will come.

2 People will love themselves. They will love money. They will talk about themselves and be proud. They will say wrong things about people. They will not obey their parents. They will not be thankful. They will not keep anything holy.

3 They will have no love. They will not agree with anybody. They will tell lies about people. They will have no self-control. They will beat people. They will not love anything that is good.

4 They cannot be trusted. They will act quickly, without thinking. They are proud of themselves. They love to have fun more than they love God.


Isaiah 5:20Living Bible (TLB)

20 They say that what is right is wrong and what is wrong is right; that black is white and white is black; bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

Romans 1:32
Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

When we revert to our base instincts we become like the animals, struggling to survive in an eat or be eaten world, anything goes, kill to get to the top.

Lions aren't doing anything wrong when they set upon a wildebeest giving birth and consume the baby first because its tender and can't get away. They are conserving energy, making the simplest of choices in order to survive.

I don't see people waiting along walkways to attack children, drag them into alleyways and eat them. That would be wrong, we know the difference, we are human, not animals.

In that regard… If you don't know the difference don't bother replying, I won't argue with animalistic cretins.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I believe that morality and ethics are inherently subjective, dig?

We will never get everyone to agree on everything the real test is tryng to set a standard and I don't believe that religion or laws are going to fix any of that. If someone has evil in their heart that individual is naturally predisposed to do evil regardless of the mores set forth by their chosen religion or political affiliation.

with so many people living in such a relatively small space it is literally impossible to get everyone to agree completely without stepping on some toes. I think that the best solution is 'live and let live' but just as soon as someone starts getting their rights violated or harmed in anyway, the community must step in and say: "enough is enough." I understand that lots of folks are revolted by the idea of abortion, and its sick, really it is but who am I to decide that that is not what is best for that woman at that time? It's not particularly a debate I like to have so I'll leave it at that but it goes without saying that I believe in freedom of choice so long as no harm is being done to others, which, unfortunately, isn't a sublime philosophy but it seems to work fine as long as one practices common sense.

So are morality and ethics dead? I don't know that they were ever concrete idea to begin with.

a reply to: grandmakdw
No shellfish or mixed fabrics, either. I won't use a religious book to guide my ethics. Though it is a fantastic book- full of allegories and lessons and even a little history. I have read the bible cover to cover about 7 times. I was going to minor in religious studies in college I took so many classes on it.

And whoever said abortion is fine because morals and ethics are dead is sadly mistaken. It is never 'fine', that is not the correct word. It is always a choice and always a difficult one. People that have abortions, the vast majority, wrestle with the morality and ethics of it in depth.

Ethics and morality aren't dead, anywhere, I don't think. Humanity has actually improved. You will disagree with me, but when looks back in the past, it was always worse. We live and we grow.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: grandmakdw

Since people in the US can not agree on a standard
for morality or ethics,
is the first person right?
Are ethics and morality dead in the US?
Is there no standard or moral compass or
moral base in the US anymore?

The answer to that is "Mob Rule" and "Political Correctness".

Whatever the mob decides is moral today is moral.

Whatever was moral yesterday is immoral tomorrow.

The conservative talking point on the fake PC stuff is really unnecessary. Suddenly, being compassionate and tolerant became almost a dirty word, that conservatives use the abbreviation 'PC' for. I look at what would Jesus think? It is almost completely opposite of what I see coming from conservatives. Conservatives, in fact, are usually the worst hypocrites, keeping their 'sins' a secret. Not anyone here, that I know of. But that seems to be how it goes.

"Be sure of this." "They will talk about themselves and be proud."

If you really believe, you really have faith...those are words to meditate upon.

Morals and ethics are alive and well, they just may not be those pushed by religion. What I DO think is dead is empathy. It's me first. You don't matter.

a reply to: grandmakdw
Morality and ethics are plenty alive. I deal with people daily, as a part of my occupation. Most people are good folks. I've had little problem with the hundreds of people I deal with. Are they perfect? No. None of us are, though.

Many on ATS have repeatedly said that religion should never, ever in any form be used as a moral or ethical guideline in the US, because the morals and ethics of the religious are dangerous and outdated.

This is true. Morals and ethics should never be implemented from a religious text, just because it is a religious text. If we did that, there would be a pit of dead bodies outside every city from the daily stonings and beheadings. The arbiter of morals and ethics are the law of the land, and the people themselves. Though admittedly, the golden rule is about as good as it gets, and predates Christianity. Obviously, no one can actually live it, but at least it gives us a standard to shoot for.

originally posted by: Klassified
This is true. Morals and ethics should never be implemented from a religious text, just because it is a religious text.

Morals and religion aren't necessary. I am not in the least religious but I don't lie, steal, etc because I have respect for myself and my reputation. Not because to any given text.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Klassified
This is true. Morals and ethics should never be implemented from a religious text, just because it is a religious text.

Morals and religion aren't necessary. I am not in the least religious but I don't lie, steal, etc because I have respect for myself and my reputation. Not because to any given text.

Exactly. Morals and ethics come from our instinct to survive and thrive as a species. In order for that to happen, we learned early on to work together in groups. In order for that to work, we needed basic tenets that were conducive to the survival of the group, as well as the individual. Over time, those tenets matured, and became the basis for our collective morals and ethics, that can be found in most cultures throughout the world. Morals and ethics are not, and never have been the sole domain of religion. Religion has just been used as a purveyor for some of those tenets. Unfortunately, it hasn't always been a good one.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Morality and ethics are not dead in the USA. In fact they're more prevalent then ever before, just people are thinking differently now. I can attest to this being in Manhatten daily with every facet of human individualism conceivable.

What I was implying in the other thread was trying to preach morality 'issues', as related to the pro-life/pro-choice arguement, is futile. Most have there own definition of morality and degree to which they adhere to it. When trying to convince a pro-choice follower that they are wrong based solely on morality you'll just hit a wall in most cases, it's too intangible and has been seeded by centuries of religious rhetoric which many see as outdated.

Religious people seem to have it easier, it's spelled out for them but those that choose not to follow a religious path, which is becoming the new norm, have to create their own standards. It doesn't make it wrong, quite the opposite, the world is growing and assimilating errors and knowledge from the past to make a better smarter future. If we as a society didn't do this it would ultimately lead to stagnation.

As you read earlier I am pro-life, but believe in pro-choice because my morality and ethics system prevents me from making a choice for someone I know nothing about based on how I personally feel. Similarly, I have nothing against the gay community either, but I do feel it's wrong for someone to be forced to bake a wedding cake if it's against what they believe and I'm not religious.

Now if I saw a mother harming a newborn or worse, if I saw a pregnant woman drinking alcohol in excess, I would most definitely say something. Some may see this as hypocritical, but to me it's very different.

I don't think morality is dead in anyone except in people that cling to dogmas, people that are too lazy to learn the nuances of people different than themselves, people too lazy to learn science so that they may not have such an emotional near violent reaction to certain realities.

One must have a basis for their morality.

So what standard can one compare too to establish their morality and its system of practice?

there are high moral standards and low moral standards and then shades of grey in between.

So where does one get them?

From another man?

here is one thing I know is true. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

So to trust in myself or another man to establish my morals would be a foolish thing.

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

So far, from what I have read I have come to the conclusion
from what all of you have written that:

morality and ethics are dead in the US

Why? Because there are absolutely no moral or ethical
standards that the society can agree upon. No one has
convinced me so far that there is any basis in the US
that the majority can agree upon when it comes to
morality and ethics.

Many seem to feel that their particular brand of ethics
and morals are the best, be it subjective, or feelings based,
or fear of societal ostracism; or religious based;
or politically based; but no real concrete moral
base that anyone can point to and say, we all agree that ......

The very definition of the words morality and ethics
are founded upon a collective agreement within a
society as to what is moral and what is ethical.
I certainly do not see that at all in any of your writings.

So so far, I tend to agree that the US now has no
moral or ethical base
and that morality and ethics in the US are essentially dead
for all practical purposes and within the confines of the
definition of morality and ethics.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

And being a person of quality means nothing without a governing spirit? Am I reading that right?

a reply to: intrepid

Depends on what governing spirit.

Care to elaborate?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

My point is that one doesn't need a..... whatever to tell you what is right. We know what is.

a reply to: intrepid

you may think you know but you have no idea.

what is needed is a moral compass or all guidance is lost