13 reported dead, 300 injured, after blast rocks busy Chinese port

a reply to: nonjudgementalist

Looks as if a suitcase nuke went off.

Hang on....ANOTHER explosion..www.click2houston.com...

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: Navarro

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: Navarro

originally posted by: asen_y2k
a reply to: Navarro

The problem with the book "Art of War" is that, every Tom Dick and Harry has read it. When only the Chinese had it, it was an advantage, not anymore.

The PRC has repeatedly demonstrated that they may have a superior understanding of modern warfare than the Americans have. I believe the difference in doctrine between the two powers may be the same difference as was between Britain and the American colonies during the Revolutionary War.

While Americans were beginning to exercise cover, concealment and ambushes, the British were continuing to utilize skirmish lines with poor effect. Now consider modern Chinese strategy. On several occasions now American carrier battle groups were conducting exercises at sea. One single PRC submarine hid on the ocean floor, avoiding detection by sonar. When the moment was right, the crew surfaced the boat with the carrier in their crosshairs. The Chinese went undetected until they had a point blank firing solution on the American carrier. Elegant, efficient and absolutely destructive.

There's many additional evidences of the Chinese posessing superior military doctrine. In each instance, their methodology is simple, subtle and effective. "The Art of War" has evolved, and we may be at a severe disadvantage.

They may have a better doctrine but the USA spends more money on its military, so they are playing catch up, notice they are only copy cats, they have zero ability to make thier own stuff.

I'll have to disagree with you there. The US military is more costly than the rest of the worlds militaries combined, but that isn't to say it's more powerful or effective than the combination of all the worlds militaries. I suspect we're likely looking at the effect of gross mismanagement of resources rather than evidence of power. I find it difficult to believe that the United States could take on the entire world simultaneously and come out on top, yet the DOD budget would suggest otherwise. DOD claims the US military is built for conducting warfare in only three theaters, after all.

I believe instead the Chinese are more efficient and reasonable in their expenditure, but not necessarily less capable. You say they stole their technologies; I say they acquired the same technologies as us, but at a fraction of the cost. That, in fact, is in line with "The Art of War." Why expend resources on a thing when you can more simply let your enemy create it for you?

We dont really know is my point, and even if there is an offical story there will always be those who dont believe it.

As to the military:
I think our military/USA is has a contingency for taking on not only China but taking over every nation on earth if the need arises, even doing it all at the same time. There are secret programs for that type of stuff should the need ever arise. So no the rest of the world may be considered obsolete in terms of technology we may have stuff 50,000 years ahead of them, from various means.

But all that is moot, my point is if they may think it was a covert attack then we may be in for a counter covert attack.

In the covert unseen realm may be where th next wars are fought, we will see or we may not.
However dont be mistaken they have spies and so do we, we will see what happens in times to come.

I've no doubt that the Pentagon has indeed formed a contingency for a US vs The World scenario. That doesn't necessarily imply the plan is a very good one. In, I believe the eighties, DoD apparently concluded that in the event of a sneak missile attack by the Soviets, America would likely be forced to surrender within the hour. America did of course have a contingency plan, but as all the COG bunkers suggested, they weren't very confident in it, and for good reason. It very well may be that America could prevail against the entire world simultaneously, but I doubt that very much.

As far as secret programs go, I personally expect that the majority of our ultra futuristic hardware isn't entirely under our control. I'm not convinced the handlers of these things would be so concerned by the threat of a defeated America. I suspect that the claims to the end of a breakaway civilization are accurate. I find the information to that end to be the most detailed, answering the most questions, with seemingly probable answers. If so, then I'd guess that the majority of our most senstive hardware is locked up in these practically autonomous organizations. They have reasons for not revealing themselves nor their hardware to us. Why risk compromising themselves by going public in America's defense, especially where when hidden they may be safe from the attack, and where exposed they may be vulnerable to it, or vulnerable to an attack by an even more menacing third party. I would however assume these programs benefit from the federal government in resources and in other ways, so that factor does appear in support of the potential for such programs to defend America. For all we know though, the majority of that equipment is occupied with other matters unknown to the public, and are unable to aid in America's defense in time if at all, or may be otherwise inhibited. I could ramble on with more variables, but I digress: it's my opinion that the advanced technologies you speak of can't necessarily be counted on to save the day in such a scenario.

As far as assymetric warfare goes, involving spies, I'm certainly that any contest between America and China would heavily involve this. It in fact already has. Besides, a few years back a Chinese officer remarked that in the event America meaningfully harms China, the PRC would activate it's spies in the west, with instructions to strike the oligarchs directly, bypassing fighting the American military altogether. If China does indeed conclude we had something to do with this, I'm confident they'll let us know, quickly and forcefully, somehow.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: cavtrooper7

Doubt it was a nuke. With all those chemicals in one place, a nuke wasn't even needed. The PEPCON explosion was even bigger than this one.

My impression was that this was a much more powerful explosion than PEPCON. Have there been any measurements made to confirm what you say?

We have a explosion and fire in a chemical unit in Texas. A video of the fire following the explosion:

originally posted by: Navarro

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: cavtrooper7

Doubt it was a nuke. With all those chemicals in one place, a nuke wasn't even needed. The PEPCON explosion was even bigger than this one.

My impression was that this was a much more powerful explosion than PEPCON. Have there been any measurements made to confirm what you say?

The initial explosion in China was estimated to be 3 tons, and the large one was estimated at 21 tons, of TNT. The initial PEPCON explosion was around 17-21 tons, and the large one estimated at 1kt of TNT (1,000 tons). The PEPCON explosion is on a whole other level than this. The only reason it doesn't appear that way is because of the density of buildings and infrastructure surrounding the Chinese explosion.

a reply to: EternalSolace

Was in school close to henderson during pepcon, good times.

originally posted by: Navarro

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: Navarro

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: Navarro

originally posted by: asen_y2k
a reply to: Navarro

The problem with the book "Art of War" is that, every Tom Dick and Harry has read it. When only the Chinese had it, it was an advantage, not anymore.

The PRC has repeatedly demonstrated that they may have a superior understanding of modern warfare than the Americans have. I believe the difference in doctrine between the two powers may be the same difference as was between Britain and the American colonies during the Revolutionary War.

While Americans were beginning to exercise cover, concealment and ambushes, the British were continuing to utilize skirmish lines with poor effect. Now consider modern Chinese strategy. On several occasions now American carrier battle groups were conducting exercises at sea. One single PRC submarine hid on the ocean floor, avoiding detection by sonar. When the moment was right, the crew surfaced the boat with the carrier in their crosshairs. The Chinese went undetected until they had a point blank firing solution on the American carrier. Elegant, efficient and absolutely destructive.

There's many additional evidences of the Chinese posessing superior military doctrine. In each instance, their methodology is simple, subtle and effective. "The Art of War" has evolved, and we may be at a severe disadvantage.

They may have a better doctrine but the USA spends more money on its military, so they are playing catch up, notice they are only copy cats, they have zero ability to make thier own stuff.

I'll have to disagree with you there. The US military is more costly than the rest of the worlds militaries combined, but that isn't to say it's more powerful or effective than the combination of all the worlds militaries. I suspect we're likely looking at the effect of gross mismanagement of resources rather than evidence of power. I find it difficult to believe that the United States could take on the entire world simultaneously and come out on top, yet the DOD budget would suggest otherwise. DOD claims the US military is built for conducting warfare in only three theaters, after all.

I believe instead the Chinese are more efficient and reasonable in their expenditure, but not necessarily less capable. You say they stole their technologies; I say they acquired the same technologies as us, but at a fraction of the cost. That, in fact, is in line with "The Art of War." Why expend resources on a thing when you can more simply let your enemy create it for you?

We dont really know is my point, and even if there is an offical story there will always be those who dont believe it.

As to the military:
I think our military/USA is has a contingency for taking on not only China but taking over every nation on earth if the need arises, even doing it all at the same time. There are secret programs for that type of stuff should the need ever arise. So no the rest of the world may be considered obsolete in terms of technology we may have stuff 50,000 years ahead of them, from various means.

But all that is moot, my point is if they may think it was a covert attack then we may be in for a counter covert attack.

In the covert unseen realm may be where th next wars are fought, we will see or we may not.
However dont be mistaken they have spies and so do we, we will see what happens in times to come.

I've no doubt that the Pentagon has indeed formed a contingency for a US vs The World scenario. That doesn't necessarily imply the plan is a very good one. In, I believe the eighties, DoD apparently concluded that in the event of a sneak missile attack by the Soviets, America would likely be forced to surrender within the hour. America did of course have a contingency plan, but as all the COG bunkers suggested, they weren't very confident in it, and for good reason. It very well may be that America could prevail against the entire world simultaneously, but I doubt that very much.

As far as secret programs go, I personally expect that the majority of our ultra futuristic hardware isn't entirely under our control. I'm not convinced the handlers of these things would be so concerned by the threat of a defeated America. I suspect that the claims to the end of a breakaway civilization are accurate. I find the information to that end to be the most detailed, answering the most questions, with seemingly probable answers. If so, then I'd guess that the majority of our most senstive hardware is locked up in these practically autonomous organizations. They have reasons for not revealing themselves nor their hardware to us. Why risk compromising themselves by going public in America's defense, especially where when hidden they may be safe from the attack, and where exposed they may be vulnerable to it, or vulnerable to an attack by an even more menacing third party. I would however assume these programs benefit from the federal government in resources and in other ways, so that factor does appear in support of the potential for such programs to defend America. For all we know though, the majority of that equipment is occupied with other matters unknown to the public, and are unable to aid in America's defense in time if at all, or may be otherwise inhibited. I could ramble on with more variables, but I digress: it's my opinion that the advanced technologies you speak of can't necessarily be counted on to save the day in such a scenario.

As far as assymetric warfare goes, involving spies, I'm certainly that any contest between America and China would heavily involve this. It in fact already has. Besides, a few years back a Chinese officer remarked that in the event America meaningfully harms China, the PRC would activate it's spies in the west, with instructions to strike the oligarchs directly, bypassing fighting the American military altogether. If China does indeed conclude we had something to do with this, I'm confident they'll let us know, quickly and forcefully, somehow.

Very good post probably one of the best I have seen for some time. Yes there may be things happening behind the curtain, and both sides may be part of the secret space program or have factions of thier own space programs. Could it have been a human error or negligence on part of the government of course.
As to the secret space program they will be there for us when the time calls for them to aid us, but I think it all depends on the seriousness of the situation. I think if we are in an open confrontation and declare war the secret space programs will be there to aid us, but for the moment they may be tied up in various other military secret covert activities.

I doubt public will ever be in the know as covert groups like to keep thier secrets.
In the mean time we have various disasters unfolding in varioud countries which may be man made or natural, who knows. I can only hope all nations can get along better and get over thier differences, however i dont expect too much that way im not dissapointed.

They pulled a firefighter out from under the rubble, after 30+ hours.

Firefighter alive

19 year old firefighter found alive

Small mercies...

Breaking: The Chinese authorities have ordered the evacuation of residents within a 3km radius of the Tianjin blast site over fears of chemical contamination.

BBC:

The Chinese authorities have ordered the evacuation of residents within a 3km radius of the Tianjin blast site over fears of chemical contamination.
The official Xinhua news agency said the evacuation was prompted by the threat of "toxic substances" spreading.
Anti-chemical warfare troops had entered the site, it said.
Eighty-five people are now known to have died and hundreds were hurt in the giant blasts in the north-eastern Chinese port on Wednesday.
The operators of the Tianjin site have been accused of "clearly violating" safety rules.

Also reports of fresh explosion is the blast site: www.cnn.com...

a reply to: asen_y2k

Something just doesn't feel right about this whole thing, not sure what, but I have a strange feeling about it

originally posted by: highfromphoenix
Is this a U.S. retaliation for the pentagon hack?

The U.S. claimed it was a Russian hack but....send a message?

Wouldn't put it past... "them".

It appears that there were chemicals stored at the site of which one which reacts with water and forms acetylene gas which is highly unstable and flammable.
Acetylene is fabricated by pouring drops of water on calciumcarbid, among others the gas is used for a cutting torch and of course autogenous welding in combination with oxygen.

ammonium nitrate is not sensitive and very difficult to make it explode but form what i understand, when heated it undergoes a transformation into gaseous substances.

A little bit of Calcium carbid is enough to do this.







Now i don't know how much tons of Calcium carbid was stored there, but clearly it was not a good idea to just fight the a fire with water while not thinking about what reaction it would trigger if the water was able to mix with chemicals stored at the site.

a reply to: earthling42

Is it common and legal in the netherlands to ignite carbid canons?

a reply to: MeanMinistry

Around christmastime and new year it is legal to ignite them
But not much police or no police seen on the farmlands so if farmers decide to have a little fun, there is nobody to stop them

a reply to: asen_y2k

I am sad about this large industrial accident, I hope the casualty numbers stay low but I fear they are only going to go up. I can only imagine the long term effects this disaster is going to have on all the people within that 6 mile radius blast area. My heart and prayers go out to them.

About the chemicals:
I wonder why the chemicals were "stored". I can see them coming in from shipments and needing to pass through customs for examination, but why the long term storage ? Because of their dangerous status ? Or perhaps this was their permanent storage facility ? Or was it simply a temporary stop after coming off the ship and then moving onto their final destination. Anyway... according to this article questions are being raised about how and why such chemicals were being stored at the port. So I imagine if it were a normal practice, they will more than likely be making some changes on how things are done in the future.

I wonder how long this stuff is going to linger in the air. I wonder from the initial explosions, and what the people breathed in during the last few days... how damaging that could be to their health.

"According to the Tianjin Tanggu Environmental Monitoring Station, hazardous chemicals stored by the company concerned include sodium cyanide (NaCN), toluene diisocyanate (TDI) and calcium carbide (CaC2), all of which pose direct threats to human health on contact. NaCN in particular is highly toxic. Ca (C2) and TDI react violently with water and reactive chemicals, with risk of explosion. This will present a challenge for firefighting and, with rain forecast for tomorrow, is a major hazard," Greenpeace said.

Wen Wurui, Tianjin's environment protection chief, told a news conference Thursday that some chemical levels in the area were higher than normal but that they wouldn't be dangerous to human health unless someone is exposed to them for long periods. Slightly under 90,000 people live within a 5 kilometer radius of the blast site, according to China's Earthquake Administration. The explosions have raised questions about the storage of hazardous materials at Tianjin's port.

China explosion

leolady

Now i took a screenshot from Google Earth Archive from 23.11.2011 (shows the "hole" in the ground) and highlighted the estimated crater position



Location: 39° 2'22.97"N / 117°44'11.75"E

Based on Google Earth, up to 07.05.2015, there was no building and the Crater location is >100m away from the mentioned Warehouse(s) - just think about it..

I imagine the inquiry will be just as big as the explosion.

I like a big bang just as much as anyone else but that was frightening and I'd be spooked if I saw that first hand. I'll echo the sentiments of Brit and others-you'd be surprised just how sensitive and volatile certain elements and compounds are; surely their was an oversight somewhere and it's obvious that the overseers were not careful enough.