A strange find from Sumeria...

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: DazDaKing

I suspect just one aspect of why these tablets are not 'mainstream and acceptable is due to the fact - you rightly mentioned - but is glossed totally over, is those tablets tell us we are a created slave race - that doesn't fit man's religious ego in any way, shape or form or many 'free' people's egos either.

Funnily enough when you think how slave-like religious people act towards their invisible God and his supposed rules etc - nothing has changed.

First off, the Great God (Enlil) created the lesser gods, to do the work, then they complained it was too much for them, so man was created to take their place. So we replaced gods.
Then the humans multiplied beyond the Gods control, showing how strong we had become and annoying him with the noise we make, so he tried three times to annihilate us with famine, disease and flood and failed

I prefer this version of the creation of man to "God put us in a garden with some rules, which we broke because of the woman"
But the one that I like the most, is the Babylonian Genesis the "Enuma Elish", where Man is created by Bel Marduk, who doesn't get annoyed at them and doesn't try to kill them. Bel Marduk was worshipped officially for 2000 years as a result (unofficially 4000 years )

based on rings through the noses of bulls in order to lead them

woah Kantzveldt, slow down there, that is just one interpretation for their origin. Stating that as a fact is an error. There are several other interpretations, they evolved from a shepherds crook for instance. Jeremy Black has a lot to say on the subject and you should read Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia (I have a pdf copy if you send me an email address i'll mail it)
Either way the object is called a "ring staff"

a reply to: Marduk

I see them and think of Ringkampf-Ring und Stab, i just like the phrase, but the conclusion seems certain that it represented one ring to bind them all, that it was the collective ring to which all nose rings would be attached to.

There are some examples that look similar to the Abzu standard, which again could suggest it was based on a tethering post with Cosmological associations, so i think you were half right...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

I see them and think of Ringkampf-Ring und Stab, i just like the phrase, but the conclusion seems certain that it represented one ring to bind them all, that it was the collective ring to which all nose rings would be attached to.

There are some examples that look similar to the Abzu standard, which again could suggest it was based on a tethering post with Cosmological associations, so i think you were half right...

Um, no, as I have already said, its more complicated than that, so you proclaiming me wrong right or even half right is a bit meaningless as there is no definitive answer

ring-post
The ring-headed post, usually with streamers,
is common in early historic art, mainly from
Uruk, often depicted as a doorpost for a structure
built of reeds and probably made of a
bundle of reeds bound together, with the upper
ends bent over to make a loop for the crosspole.
As this shape is the earliest form of the
written sign for the name of the goddess Inana,
it ought to be her symbol. After the Uruk
Period, the symbol is to be found, though
rarely, until the Early Dynastic Period, after
which it disappears from art. Its disappearance
may have been due to the obsolescence of
pictographic writing.

A rather different ring-headed post without
streamer is known as a symbol in Early Dynastic
art. That it is often carried as a gatepost by
gods with curls (Lahmu) suggests a possible
association with the god Enki.
ring-staff
This symbol is common in early historic art
and, like the ring-post, was used as a sign
in pictographic script, but its meaning is
unknown. In the earliest representations it is
often seen in an architectural context and in
association with scenes of animal husbandry. It
was most popular as a symbol and attribute in
the Neo-Sumerian Period, and is last found in
Old Babylonian art. When held as an object, in
these later representations, it is always held by a
god, never a goddess. Suggestions for the
identity of this god are Adad (Iskur) and the
sun god Samas (Utu). Advocates of the former
sometimes regard the symbol as a stylisation of
the lightning (symbol), while supporters of
the identification of the god as Samas have seen
the ring-staff as a version of the rod and ring,
thought by some to be a symbol of Samaš.
Whatever may be the merits of this last argument,
an identification of the god who holds
the ring-staff as Samaš may be the more
plausible suggestion, for the symbol is also
occasionally associated with the bull-man.

a reply to: Marduk

I don't think it's so complicated, the Inanna totem originates in the context of reed huts and cattle breeding were the totem seen there probably also had the function of the tethering post.





You probably see here also the origin of the six ringlets of Lahmu's hair, showing his close association with these totems, that those could be associated with constellations giving the sense of those circling the Heavens around a fixed point.



It doesn't seem very practical to have a tethering post on the roof so one should assume they had taken on symbolic value. Why they should show three such posts may relate to the three pathways of the Heavens of Anu, Enki and Enlil, that the Heavenly bodies circled those pathways like so many cattle around fixed points.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

It doesn't seem very practical to have a tethering post on the roof so one should assume they had taken on symbolic value. Why they should show three such posts may relate to the three pathways of the Heavens of Anu, Enki and Enlil, that the Heavenly bodies circled those pathways like so many cattle around fixed points.

Alternatively, you should probably study reed hut construction and you'll find out why reed huts need strong uprights as supports.


If the symbolism of the ring is "divinity", then we don't need to look for any further meaning

In the opinion of our esteemed panel here....were the Sumerians the ones in Mesopotamia that domesticated the aurochs?

A Mitochondrial DNA study suggests that all domesticated taurine cattle originated from about 80 wild female aurochs in the Near East

en.wikipedia.org...

Would one of their gods be the herd master for the above population of 80?

a reply to: Marduk

They could just be seen alongside the super-structure of the hut itself so there's no practical considerations involved, they were placed there for symbolic value though that had derived from the practical usage of tethering posts.



The ring in the case of the ring and staff literally implied leadership and was not a generic sign of Divinity, in terms of the tethering posts there is a great deal of symbolic association connected to them, they connect the Abzu the Earth and the Heavens and the elements related to them, fixed points of establishment that could also relate to the fixed pathways of the stars, the six visible and six invisible constellations at any given time.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I think it would pre-date the Sumerians at around 10,500 years ago, though probably occurred in Northern Mesopotamia or Anatolia.

Taurine cattle

If it's been suggested before, forgive me...but could this be an artifact from a large version of a 'Baghdad Battery'?

originally posted by: IAMTAT
If it's been suggested before, forgive me...but could this be an artifact from a large version of a 'Baghdad Battery'?

The Baghdad battery was a jar for storing scrolls, you would have to adapt It with contemporary knowledge to make it hold a charge and even then, you get more voltage from a citrus fruit
please read
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

RIght.

Im guess im just marveling at the context of the Sumerian (and European and Indian) love of the bull, the domestication of the auroch, and the beginnings of lactose tolerance.

now i have an evening of stuff to read through, though. So i got that going for me.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The Toda are very interesting to gain insight into how important the domestication of cattle would have been seen;

On was the son of Pithi. He created the buffaloes and the Todas in that order. In the Toda tradition we find instances where buffaloes are credited with almost human intelligence. Many of the Todas maintain that they worship the buffalo as a deity. On created 1600 buffaloes, behind the last buffalo came man, the first Toda.

I think also in Christianity the cult of the tethering pole of Lahmu has it's place as that was the significance of Bethlehem and the stable, referring back to the traditions of the sacred breeding huts in terms of the stable, the association of the tethering pole with the pathways of the stars, the fixed points of the Heavens including Nibiru directly overhead.

The name Bethlehem appears to have been indicated in a cuneiform tablet found in Egypt belonging to the archive of the pharaoh Akhenaton: it speaks of the city of Bit Lahmu located in the territory of Jerusalem.

Bethlehem naming

a reply to: Marduk

Were the lesser Gods specifically created? I'm not sure that parts mentioned anywhere. The Igigi (lesser Gods) are spoken more of as offspring to the Gods, or simply just existing, than a creation. We are the creation.

Then again, the Eridu Genesis mentions that the Gods first created the black - headed people. This line has always confused me. Does this represent the Igigi? It's the only time they would have been referenced in this way.

The Book of Enoch (which is in all honesty Biblical canon) heavily talks about the Igigi in the form of the Fallen Angels - led by Samyaza, aka Samuel, aka Satan.

The number of the Fallen Angels corresponds to the number of Iggigi (200 or 300 I believe) who rebelled against the higher Gods in much earlier Babylonian stories.

The act of rebellion is the same too - breeding and thus having offspring with humans, and teaching humans about things we should not know under the supervision of the Gods.

It's really interesting how in the Hebrew Bible, the characters of Enlil and Enki become God and the Snake/Devil respectively. Originally, Enki is portrayed as our our creator, and also saviour, while Enlil is our ruler, and hence our oppressor and destroyer.

Enlil has always been portrayed as of superior status to Enki, and even after the post flood is held as the true Ruler of Earth - despite Enki being the wise and good God. It is not quite a black and white duality as portrayed in the Bible.

What stumps me about the Sumerian story is that it's never truly clear what these characters represent. At times it seems like planets and stars, or symbols for aspects of nature, but then at other times its clearly referring to a humanoid aspect.

Take this extract for example:

When the gods, man-like,

Bore the labour, carried the load,
The gods' load was great,
The toil grievous, the trouble excessive.
The great Anunnaku, the Seven,
Were making the Igigu undertake the toil.

Here we have mention of the Annunaki (those of Anu/offspring of Anu) which are portrayed as a council, cohort or group of Gods, including Enlil and Enki - which could be argued to be a representation of 7 potentially observable celestial bodies (5 planets + Sun/Moon) and Anu representing the 'sea' of space.

But then we have a blatantly physical description of humanoids or man-like entities using their bodies to toil for these Annunaki. The Igigi are said to personally rebel to Enlil by burning their tools and visiting him at his great house, which triggers a summoning of the Council and the eventual creation of us.

Then there's the repeated concept of Gods breeding with man and the resultant Demigods. This isn't just an odd juxtaposition here and there but literally consistent throughout the story.

This part of the story was dropped from the Abrahamic religions in most of its form. Leaving out the Book of Enoch makes the Biblical references to Angels and Demons heavily incomplete and hence they become portrayed in a more mysterious and non physical manner as a consequence.

I'm starting to think these stories may somehow be related to our interactions with Neanderthals. If you date the Sumerian King list backwards from the archaelogically confirmed King of 2500BCish (can't remember the name) you get to a flood date of around 40,000 BC.

This is within 10% of the time when we know Neanderthals disappeared from the Earth and an ice age abruptly ended. Coincidence? Possibly.

What I also can't get around is how the first 7 Kings are blatantly numbers relating to the precession of the North Star. In fact, the entire mathematical system they comprised was essentially rooted in astronomy (research the sexi-decimal system).

This is astounding. Either it's all a huge coincidence or our evidence of the Sumerian culture is simply our earliest available source of information left regarding a civilization that has potentially existed as a consistent unit since the time when man walked with other humanoids altogether.

Who knows? It's a shame we will never get to know the entirety of it as there are clearly many groups on Earth who are mercilessly interested in suppressing any further finds regarding these ancients tales and civilizations. How sad.

P.S - Another common thread in all these stories is the existence of giants, or giantism, which was generally seen as a physical trait of all demigods to some extent or another.

This is the one thing that blows apart the Neanderthal theory for me. Though it's hard to determine what was actually being portrayed as a 7 ft tall giant as opposed to a 10 ft tall giant - for example.

Perhaps the offspring of Humans and Neanderthals were generally taller at that time compared to the respective parents (7 ft would have been relatively giant to 5 ft tall humans) and the 10 ft tall giants were to simply represent the higher Gods in a way that made sense to us at the time. This violates the purely astronomical interpretation of the higher Gods however.

We have so much lost history - of that I'm sure.

There is a quote from Gudea's building of Nin-Girsu's Temple at Girsu which indicates what i considered with regards to the strange stags seen manifesting between the Temple standards;

He [Gudea] made the metal tops of its standards twinkle as the horns of the holy stags of the abzu. Gudea made the house of Ninĝirsu stand to be marvelled at like the new moon in the skies.

The horns of the stag are generated by the ring posts as can be seen here;



That requires some explanation...





So it would depend if forked electrical discharge through the metallic tops of the standards could have been seen as comparable to the horns of stags, there are plenty of seals that show that relationship so it must have been seen as important, as a constellation the stag of the Abzu was Andromeda, which didn't just twinkle it sparkled...

originally posted by: DazDaKing
a reply to: Marduk



I'm starting to think these stories may somehow be related to our interactions with Neanderthals. If you date the Sumerian King list backwards from the archaelogically confirmed King of 2500BCish (can't remember the name) you get to a flood date of around 40,000 BC.


This is within 10% of the time when we know Neanderthals disappeared from the Earth and an ice age abruptly ended. Coincidence? Possibly.

What I also can't get around is how the first 7 Kings are blatantly numbers relating to the precession of the North Star. In fact, the entire mathematical system they comprised was essentially rooted in astronomy (research the sexi-decimal system).

This is astounding. Either it's all a huge coincidence or our evidence of the Sumerian culture is simply our earliest available source of information left regarding a civilization that has potentially existed as a consistent unit since the time when man walked with other humanoids altogether.

Who knows? It's a shame we will never get to know the entirety of it as there are clearly many groups on Earth who are mercilessly interested in suppressing any further finds regarding these ancients tales and civilizations. How sad.

P.S - Another common thread in all these stories is the existence of giants, or giantism, which was generally seen as a physical trait of all demigods to some extent or another.

This is the one thing that blows apart the Neanderthal theory for me. Though it's hard to determine what was actually being portrayed as a 7 ft tall giant as opposed to a 10 ft tall giant - for example.

Perhaps the offspring of Humans and Neanderthals were generally taller at that time compared to the respective parents (7 ft would have been relatively giant to 5 ft tall humans) and the 10 ft tall giants were to simply represent the higher Gods in a way that made sense to us at the time. This violates the purely astronomical interpretation of the higher Gods however.

Firstly the offspring of Sapiens and Neanderthals were normal sized
en.wikipedia.org...
Secondly even Goliath wasn't as big as modern versions of the bible make out
en.wikipedia.org...
Thirdly the Bible is not a history book and so assuming on your own interpretation is foolish
You are probably reading the KJV version which reads

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that

When the original passage in the Hebrew bible reads

The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that,

Now there are many translations of the word Nephilim,

various suggested interpretations are "all very precarious".

I can't be bothered to type out what the rest of the bible says about giants, but here's a post I made some time ago which covers all the details
[url=http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,252850,253258#msg-253258 [/url]
Modern science is very well aware of the physical limits of the human frame, Giants are nonsense. Huge bones but no corpses speaks volumes

Who knows? It's a shame we will never get to know the entirety of it as there are clearly many groups on Earth who are mercilessly interested in suppressing any further finds regarding these ancients tales and civilizations. How sad.

There are no groups on earth suppressing Mesopotamian archaeology. Maybe ISIS lol, but as far as I am aware, the way to suppress evidence is not to let international teams of archaeologists dig it up and then report on what they find in the international press...

This is astounding. Either it's all a huge coincidence or our evidence of the Sumerian culture is simply our earliest available source of information left regarding a civilization that has potentially existed as a consistent unit since the time when man walked with other humanoids altogether.

Its not an either or situation, its much more likely that you do not understand the culture you are making claims for and you are cherry picking your evidence through a lack of that understanding and your own bias. Like using the KJV for instance and not the original Hebrew version which you can read online here
www.mechon-mamre.org...

One thing that is an absolute fact, the Sumerians who you were thinking were somehow involved had no noun for giant, they had to use the word "big" to describe large things, if there had been giants around, you'd think they would name them
go check
psd.museum.upenn.edu...

In fact the only reference to Giants in any Sumerian literature are the "50 giants of Eridu" mentioned in "Inanna and Enki" and the word used there to describe them is "Towering", which seems more a reference to either height or status than anything else

Good post. I agree with similarities with the ringed disk, the Egyptian ankh, etc. Tesla coils? Bah! Uhm NO!

a reply to: TheChrome

The mysteries of the Abzu shrine are beyond the imagination...



But perhaps included batteries;



And coils...



To generate electro-man.



Because of course the Abzu shrine was concerned with the creation of organic life and that has an electrical basis, Enki knew what he was doing.

The Mesopotamians had no understanding of electricity and if they did, the place you would see it would not be cylinder seals
That's a bit like claiming that we have an understanding of nuclear physics and the only place you will ever see it is in illustrated check books.

You also seem to think that the carvers of cylinder seals were well versed in electrical theory, which is about a big a misunderstanding of how the culture worked that I have ever seen


Andromeda is also so faint that most people need binoculars to see it

a reply to: Marduk

You're assuming off your own experience.

Andromeda is magnitude 3.4, an unaided human can see up to magnitude 6.0.

A Magnitude 1 star is 2.5 times brighter than a magnitude 2 star, and 100 times brighter than a magnitude 6 star.

To imagine the sky back in Sumerian times with absolutely NO light pollution. It would be VERY easy to point out Andromeda .

originally posted by: Triton1128
a reply to: Marduk

You're assuming off your own experience.

Andromeda is magnitude 3.4, an unaided human can see up to magnitude 6.0.

A Magnitude 1 star is 2.5 times brighter than a magnitude 2 star, and 100 times brighter than a magnitude 6 star.

To imagine the sky back in Sumerian times with absolutely NO light pollution. It would be VERY easy to point out Andromeda .

No, it wouldn't for a few reasons
1. the proportion of people who even knew of Andromedas existence to a degree that they could talk about it was amazingly small (a handful of Astronomer priests per city), You ask most normal people today to point out a certain constellation and they would be clueless, people back then were no different. The level of education depended on the skill of the teacher and on this subject most people weren't educated. As has been proven by anthropologists time and time again, what one tribal elder claims is the correct star for the great god, the next will claim differently.
2. The Babylonian star catalogue the Mul apin doesn't list Andromeda separately, so they weren't aware of its significance, only the third brightest (Gamma Andromedae) star of Andromeda was important as along with the Triangulum plus Gamma Andromedae as together they represented the Goddess Anunitu (mother of Enlil)
The Mul Apin was the most advanced astromical document that exists from the pre Greek ancient world and dates to around 1000bce

My experience includes modern and ancient astronomical studies, thanks

You posted that because I made a comment about most people needing binoculars to see Andromeda, because its faint, its actually recommended to do it that way by so many online sources that to list them here would be superfluous

From a looking up into the nights sky point of view, unless you knew exactly where to look, Andromeda isn't massively obvious

your post was awesome though, people need to read and understand that

a reply to: Marduk

I'm a Physics major, with minor in Astronomy. I'm a bit adamant about space/science

Should be pointed out that the only civilizations that could even see Andromeda, would be located in the Northern Hemisphere. Even at 41.7*North, its relatively low in the North, North East sky!