Colonizing Apes

a reply to: jonnywhite

first paragraph of what I wrote

Don't feel bad I only read to here

originally posted by: jonnywhite

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Talorc

Orcas can't live on land.

And we can't live in the sea. Your point?

Show you some evidence of what? That we are logical and self-aware?

No, that we take steps to mitigate the damage we do to the environment. By which I don't mean burying the problem in our neighbours' backyards.

Ah, we both misunderstood each other then. My point was exactly that: we DON'T try to limit our impact on the environment. We're on a terrible path where that's concerned. For all our supposed logic and reason, we're incredibly short-sighted. The post was supposed to be a bit sarcastic.

As for living underwater, maybe not, but there are things like this:

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Technology has made us the ultimate colonizer.

We don't try to limit our impact on the environment? Where did you get that idea? We do limit it, but not as much as you want. Lots of environmentalist-minded think humans aren't doing enough.

And ya I like your point about us using technology to colonize. Astyanax said orcas were global or something, but that's missing the point. Your point was clear to me: Humans have used technology and their mind to live just about anywhere on the planet:
1 We live underwater in submarines for days/weeks/months--and travel there via scuba gear and other things
2 We live on the surface of the water in ships and docks and can swim on it too
3 We can live in the air for days/weeks in blimps and for almost indefinitely if an airplane is refueled
4 We can live underground in bases
5 We have bases on antarctica/etc

1 We don't need 8 legs like a spider to climb, we got climbing gear
2 We don't need wings like a bird, we got airplanes and blimps
3 We don't need fins and ability to breath water, we got submarines
4 We don't need DNA to do these things because we use technology

There're countless other examples. There're species of creature living underground because of special adaptions, yet we can go down there because we have the technology to do that. We can go to space. What other creature is building rockets and launching themselves into space?? We're living there now because we built the international space station! No other creature on Earth uses nature as extensively as we do to engage ourselves in new environments--or colonize as you term it.

Well, it's not to say some people aren't trying, but overall it seems like a pitiful attempt. If we were perfectly logical creatures, this wouldn't be the case. When animals exceed their environment's carrying capacity, they start to die. We are exceeding our carrying capacity, and barring some breakthrough in the search for renewable energy, a lot of people are going to start dying eventually.

I'm saying there's no clear-cut, absolute quality that makes humans distinct from any other critter. I don't believe in some kind of "divine spark", the idea is nonsense. Intelligence and awareness are a gradient. There's no brick wall between us and animals- rather, it's like we sit a few steps above them on a staircase. As far as intelligence, anyway. Innate worth is another (somewhat pointless) debate.

As for the rest, yeah, exactly. I expected more people to understand what I meant, but I guess the OP was too vague.

a reply to: Talorc

We are exceeding our carrying capacity, and barring some breakthrough in the search for renewable energy, a lot of people are going to start dying eventually.

No....Sorry but just Nope.....

China maybe but not the world.....That's only a capacity thing as well, not renewable energy.....We have TONS of natural gas, coal, oil and much more that is renewable....Yes oil and natural gas are renewable regardless of what propaganda you have heard on the topic....We have plenty of resources but it is our human nature that scares me.....We are not doing a good job here unless you base the merit of a good job on destroying this planet...Then we are succeeding but not for the reasons you stated above, sorry.

originally posted by: jonnywhite

originally posted by: Talorc
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I've no doubt. It'd be foolish to underestimate any critter on this planet.

But you know what sort of pisses me off? The fact that people will only read the first paragraph of what I wrote, scroll down to your post, give it a star, and say "Welp, the ants must disprove it. Thread debunked, on to the next". All the while, no other points are addressed besides what I've written in the very first paragraph. The "colonization" argument was only small part of it. As another person said, it was mainly about our evolutionary limitations.

This is no dig at you personally, rather a dig at the mediocrity and stupidity of people in general.

The Australopithicine offshoots are satisfied with themselves, I'm sure.

So you got an opinion and you're mad some people might overlook it or miss it? Welcome to the club. Everybody experiences that. This is a forum and like all forums people read and post what they want. Your comment reminds me of how the magazines and newspapers get enraged when people make critical online comments about articles, reportedly expressing "dangerous" and "bigoted" ideas. I think they call it an information war and it's their duty to educate all of us. Welcome to the real world, I say. Just because something is on the news or on TV doesn't make it immediately credible and immune to scrutiny, nor will I believe it just because the president says it. The irony is these kinds of people who ridicule the internet, characterizing it as a wasteland of bigots and trolls and dangerous individuals, just want a simpler world where people praise them and follow their lead.

Ok, so I'll outline your OP:
1 Humans are the master colonizers, thanks to culture, although culture isn't uniquely human.
2 Humans emerged because of a lucky streak and evolution carried them to their present state
3 When does a simian deserve to be called a human?
3.a. Can it be self-awareness? No. Humans don't wnat to acknowledge their flaws.
3.b. Humans seem less self-aware by the day
4 A simian deserves to be called a human when it exhibits logic and rational thought
4.a. It's the simple distinction between fact and fiction
5 Maybe humans are a depreciating commodity, managed by other humans on a planet hyper-saturated increasingly in peril

Is that accurate? I don't claim it to be. I read the whole OP before I made my first comment, but I was unsure what your point was. After outlining it, I'm still confused. I guess you're saying our days are numbered because we're starving for room and logic dictates a lot of us will have to die.

Yep, close enough. Truth be told I didn't really start out with a specific point in mind. I just sort of starting typing stuff out of boredom.

And for some reason you're comparing me to mass media groups? Buddy, I care about this a lot less than you think I do. For all you know, I was just fishing for responses. Seems like I may have been successful.

originally posted by: [post=19683679]

Don't feel bad I only read to here

Haha, untwist your panties.

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Talorc

We are exceeding our carrying capacity, and barring some breakthrough in the search for renewable energy, a lot of people are going to start dying eventually.

No....Sorry but just Nope.....

China maybe but not the world.....That's only a capacity thing as well, not renewable energy.....We have TONS of natural gas, coal, oil and much more that is renewable....Yes oil and natural gas are renewable regardless of what propaganda you have heard on the topic....We have plenty of resources but it is our human nature that scares me.....We are not doing a good job here unless you base the merit of a good job on destroying this planet...Then we are succeeding but not for the reasons you stated above, sorry.

Alright, so we are succeeding in destroying the earth, but not for the reasons I stated above. Fair enough, I'll take your word for it.

a reply to: Talorc

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Talorc

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Alright, but you can't just say I'm wrong. You have to explain your side and stuff.

Ah, whatever. I officially declare this thread a bust. Seems I wasn't clear enough and just confused a bunch of people. Looking at it again, the OP is kind of scatterbrained.

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Talorc

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Alright, but you can't just say I'm wrong. You have to explain your side and stuff.

Ah, whatever. I officially declare this thread a bust. Seems I wasn't clear enough and just confused a bunch of people. Looking at it again, the OP is kind of scatterbrained.

Well holy hell....FINALLY! I can prove whatever you would like but a quick search will give you most of this information...We have plenty of renewable energy on Earth...We need CLEAN energy....Next time be a little clearer and not beat me down for picking your crap apart...

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Talorc

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Alright, but you can't just say I'm wrong. You have to explain your side and stuff.

Ah, whatever. I officially declare this thread a bust. Seems I wasn't clear enough and just confused a bunch of people. Looking at it again, the OP is kind of scatterbrained.

Well holy hell....FINALLY! I can prove whatever you would like but a quick search will give you most of this information...We have plenty of renewable energy on Earth...We need CLEAN energy....Next time be a little clearer and not beat me down for picking your crap apart...

By CLEAN do you mean also cleaning up our CO2 emissions?

originally posted by: jonnywhite

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Talorc

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Alright, but you can't just say I'm wrong. You have to explain your side and stuff.

Ah, whatever. I officially declare this thread a bust. Seems I wasn't clear enough and just confused a bunch of people. Looking at it again, the OP is kind of scatterbrained.

Well holy hell....FINALLY! I can prove whatever you would like but a quick search will give you most of this information...We have plenty of renewable energy on Earth...We need CLEAN energy....Next time be a little clearer and not beat me down for picking your crap apart...

By CLEAN do you mean also cleaning up our CO2 emissions?

Did you just answer your own question?

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: jonnywhite

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Talorc

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Alright, but you can't just say I'm wrong. You have to explain your side and stuff.

Ah, whatever. I officially declare this thread a bust. Seems I wasn't clear enough and just confused a bunch of people. Looking at it again, the OP is kind of scatterbrained.

Well holy hell....FINALLY! I can prove whatever you would like but a quick search will give you most of this information...We have plenty of renewable energy on Earth...We need CLEAN energy....Next time be a little clearer and not beat me down for picking your crap apart...

By CLEAN do you mean also cleaning up our CO2 emissions?

Did you just answer your own question?

Well coal power plants also kill massive numbers of people worldwide. In 1995-2005, I think it was estimated 20,000 people in the US died prematurely on a yearly basis. That number is now down to maybe 10,000--give or take--because of regulations. In Europe, the estimate a few years ago was something like ~20,000. Worldwide, if everybody was regulating their emissions like US/Europe, about 76,000 people would die yearly. But given China doesn't regulate its emissions nearly as strictly as we do, the actual deaths per year is far higher than that.

Just cleaning up the particles which're killing people doesn't mean you're also cleaning up the CO2 emissions.

originally posted by: jonnywhite

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: jonnywhite

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: Chrisfishenstein
a reply to: Talorc

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Alright, but you can't just say I'm wrong. You have to explain your side and stuff.

Ah, whatever. I officially declare this thread a bust. Seems I wasn't clear enough and just confused a bunch of people. Looking at it again, the OP is kind of scatterbrained.

Well holy hell....FINALLY! I can prove whatever you would like but a quick search will give you most of this information...We have plenty of renewable energy on Earth...We need CLEAN energy....Next time be a little clearer and not beat me down for picking your crap apart...

By CLEAN do you mean also cleaning up our CO2 emissions?

Did you just answer your own question?

Well coal power plants also kill massive numbers of people worldwide. In 1995-2005, I think it was estimated 20,000 people in the US died prematurely on a yearly basis. That number is now down to maybe 10,000, give or take 5,000 people. In Europe, the estimate a few years ago was something like ~23,000. Worldwide, if everybody was regulating their emissions like US/Europe, about 76,000 people would die yearly. But given China doesn't regulate its emissions nearly as strictly as we do, the actual deaths per year is far higher than that.

Just cleaning up the particles which're killing people doesn't mean you're also cleaning up the CO2 emissions.

I hate to mention Obama, but he already put new laws into effect for the coal power plants....They are to be turned into Natural gas ones soon...That's a start because there is soooooooooo much gas under the Marcellus area of the Northeast USA it could power those plants for a really long time.....Just please no more freaking nuclear ones, I like the idea but we don't know what we are doing there just yet....Yeah emissions control helps but we just need to use cleaner energy, cars should all run on natural gas instead of oil but that won't happen....Or I should say until Big Oil gets their hands out of the cookie jar and that isn't anytime soon...

a reply to: jonnywhite

We don't try to limit our impact on the environment? Where did you get that idea? We do limit it, but not as much as you want. Lots of environmentalist-minded think humans aren't doing enough.

The discussion is about evolution, which is something that happens to populations not individuals.

A lot has been done in rich countries to mitigate local environmental impacts, but mostly it just transfers environmental problems to the poor world. That doesn't count.

a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Your faith in Big Oil propaganda is matched only by your innocence of the laws of thermodynamics.

originally posted by: Talorc
Well, it's not to say some people aren't trying, but overall it seems like a pitiful attempt. If we were perfectly logical creatures, this wouldn't be the case. When animals exceed their environment's carrying capacity, they start to die. We are exceeding our carrying capacity, and barring some breakthrough in the search for renewable energy, a lot of people are going to start dying eventually.

That's exactly it. Humans are not perfectly logical and never have been. For the most part they are emotional. You still have 60-70% of the world that believes in a worldview with no supporting evidence whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, science and math are logical and the smarter people in the world utilize these methods to learn things, but emotions play a huge role in most people's lives. For some it even overrides logic. I agree, if we were logical we would care more about our future than our present. The problem is that people are comfortable where they are and don't want to make any sacrifices that could benefit our future. They are making huge money now and care more about that then our future. Sad but true.

Nice series of posts, I enjoyed reading them.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

You said we need renewable energy....YOU said we are getting over-populated....

AGAIN.....WRONG!!!

Sorry but no that is not true....

Your faith in Big Oil propaganda is matched only by your innocence of the laws of thermodynamics.

For you to say that means to me you think you know me from a few posts backing oil...Right?

How about read a little more into it before accusing me of anything dear!

I am always talking about clean energy....But it doesn't matter because I backed oil before, right?

a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

Um, the world as a whole IS getting over populated. We might not be there yet, but at the rate of increase there will come a time where fresh water becomes an issue as well as food and other resources. They are certainly not unlimited.

And calling oil a renewable resource is a bit of an exaggeration, sorry.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ants not only outnumber humans by a LARGE margin on the planet, they colonize and are on just about every continent in most environments.

Lil bastards are everywhere. Just got bit by one yesterday!

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

Um, the world as a whole IS getting over populated. We might not be there yet, but at the rate of increase there will come a time where fresh water becomes an issue as well as food and other resources. They are certainly not unlimited.

And calling oil a renewable resource is a bit of an exaggeration, sorry.

So you are one of those people huh? We are running out of water.....RUN TO THE HILLS!!!! I will pay $500 a gallon for water....We are not running out of water, please stop believing what you read on ATS....We have limited resources pulled already but I am not debating oil on here or I get slammed, read into it if interested....Again, not fighting to keep that as one of the resources we should be using but there is plenty for a very long time, even at our consumption rates now and that will all change as we find other avenues...The sky isn't falling just yet, it will be ok

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Ants not only outnumber humans by a LARGE margin on the planet, they colonize and are on just about every continent in most environments.

Lil bastards are everywhere. Just got bit by one yesterday!

Effin ants! See bring up resources once and have to talk about oil on this topic?? Why do I click....Oh yeah because I have nothing better to do...