Baby’s lives matter: Journalist questions abortion after PP videos

a reply to: Ignatian

You sound like a parrot. You don't like someone to stand up to your nonsense, so you have to try to convert the conversation into something that makes sense to you.

How exactly does one "froth at the mouth" in typeface?

What vitriol has been tossed at you? Talk about restraint, I'd dearly love it if the T&C allowed me to state EXACTLY what I think about your stated positions, LOL.

What facts have you offered that you think are "bothering" anyone? You haven't done anything except string together garden-variety nonsense.

IF you played the "God card" on me? LOL. Deal away Sunshine.

God or your supposed "facts"; your choice. I've got all night.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Science is not "fluid."

Yes it is !

Do you believe the earth is flat? or the earth is the center of the universe? How about how many elements we have science said we had 4 earth wind fire and water how many now? Science fits available data . It has to be fluid !

This is the primary basis of referring to your expressed point-of-view (not YOU, I don't know "you" you don't know "me" so your attempt at subterfuge is as meaningless as the silly summary you posted above) as ignorant.

like um you referring to this below

The fact that folks like you try SO HARD to equalize your Neolithic superstitions with actual knowledge and understanding demonstrates precisely what your point of view thrives on: ignorance.

I say here repeatedly that you people are FAR MORE SCARY than anyone who is pro-Choice.

I find it VERY SCARY that no one can have a view other than your view which sounds like political talking points. There are other points of views. Just because there different doesn't make them automatically wrong SORRY TO BREAK YOUR BUBBLE !

And referring to(you people) as if you know my views and they inconsequential and can be lumped to others and discarded. My views are not inconsequential maybe yours are.

you believe that your wisdom is great enough to allow you to discern when "murder" is appropriate and acceptable.

But thats EXACTLY what you are trying to do. Before the birth canal its an abortion after its murder ? Do you draw the line before birth ? So if you can determine when a act is murder why is others view on when that is murder invalid ? Oh I get it you in your infinite wisdom can determine that .

Fall back , science will tell you when. Thats the same fluid science that changes it mind over the years decades and centuries .

You control zealots have far more in common with Dr. Mengele than anyone in favor of Choice.

Bovine Bio waste shock value meaningless.

You seem to fall in this category I cant have a view with out you ramming yours down my throat that is a control zealot better known a a control freak.

Those of pro life would never stoop to that level ! Abortionist Dr.s do .

a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

Science is not equal to the advance of knowledge from ignorance. No matter how much you'd like to believe that. The fact that history has recorded the evolution of human thought, via the help of science, means ... to you ... that science is responsible for ignorance???

Science is the only thing that has led us out of living in fear of some imaginary guy in the sky and the rest of the ignorance that belief-based nonsense entails.

Get real.

So, let me get this straight, you find it scary ... that I ... with whom you're disagreeing at every turn ... can't accept your opinion ... when you can't accept mine?

How does that work logically in your head?

You want to portray me as stubborn and unwilling to consider ... something ... while you tell me that I'm wrong and that you're unwilling to consider my position.

You want to critique me for stating that your views are inconsequential (I didn't), but then you state that mine are?

I don't "know" you and that should keep me from commenting on what you say here, but it's fine for you to comment on what I say because you apparently "know" me?

Right. Tell me, do you "scare" yourself? (Because you should.)

Now, anything to support anything you're saying about abortion or Choice? Or should we just take your word for it?

We're listening, you have the floor. Lay some of these "facts" on us.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Well said.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

500 years ago leaches were standard treatment then 1800 how barbaric to modern research shows some places it like helps crushed appendages.

Notice I said modern research shows some places it like helps crushed appendages .

That was one reason I used that example good bad then good again.

Science isn't a religion, as faith isn't required. Faith is placing one's belief and trust in the hands of the unknown. Science only asks one study the available evidence and make logical conclusions and decisions.

Many people do totally trust science put faith in it just like a religion.

When you quit eating butter because a scientists says it bad for you and you stop is NO different than a rabbi say dont eat pork its bad for you and you quit pork. But now butters okay .

There is plenty of proof of Columbus was not the first to the Americas and hes still getting credit. Belief over truth.

Did you perform the tests yourself if no you believe someone did and have faith they did it right and with no corporate agenda involved. Faith is involved.

Believing in nothing requires nothing. Unlike religious beliefs, scientists are willing to change their understanding based on new evidence. I don't see many religious people changing their faith around when a new understanding of the universe and reality becomes available.

Flat earth> round earth> earth centered universe > sun centered universe> to modern model . Most churches followed suit. The vatican even has observatories . Sounds like there is religions fitting current science .

a reply to: Gryphon66

Science is not equal to the advance of knowledge from ignorance. No matter how much you'd like to believe that. The fact that history has recorded the evolution of human thought, via the help of science, means ... to you ... that science is responsible for ignorance???

Are you playing twister with words? Science reevaluates its self and after a period of time even contradicts its self. As new data emerges its reworked . is fluid and it evolves . It would be better if corporate and political sway was removed. I dont faithfully accept every thing that politically correct scientists have to say especially if other views are presented within the scientific community.

Science is the only thing that has led us out of living in fear of some imaginary guy in the sky and the rest of the ignorance that belief-based nonsense entails.

Get real.

I call them as I see them. For your reference, since like many believers, you want to play the victim:

Why you keep bringing up guy in the sky . I am not bringing up religion why are you ?

Trying to goad a religious debate ?

Fail not falling for that . Find someone else for that.

So, let me get this straight, you find it scary ... that I ... with whom you're disagreeing at every turn ... can't accept your opinion ... when you can't accept mine? How does that work logically in your head?

As in your words

I say here repeatedly that you people are FAR MORE SCARY than anyone who is pro-Choice.

You find others scary and you never look in the mirror . And who is you people ?

Using you people, you get the ability to group many individuals as a single unit that makes dismissing the individual a lot easier.

You never did impart your wisdom on when its murder ?

After the birth canal ? Partial birth ? Some ethics and eugenics Drs even have stated self awareness isn't there till 24 month cant use the self awareness . Before the birth canal ? How long before ?

So when does your pro choice start and end ?

Right. Tell me, do you "scare" yourself? (Because you should.)

Not at all. But are you a psychologist ? I am certain your not so your opinion of me is mute. And with out a proper battery of tests your option would be less than worthless .


My opinion is if you can be tried for killing a fetus by assault or car accident and charged with manslaughter then at that age abortion is wrong. Or if a pregnant woman uses drugs she can be charged with abuse and child endangerment . Then abortion is wrong.

Touch a newly laid eagle egg go to jail and $10,000 fine but killing a fetus is worth a whats the going rate $1200? Another point of contention with current pro choice laws.

Thats Bovine bio waste.

The political systems have created a set of laws that that need revised to be fair. A 2 or 3 tiered system is wrong . We live in a democratically controlled republic 1 law for all .

a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

Now you're trying to turn "science" into some kind of pseudo-entity? That has its own organic life-cycle?

Science is a practice, a method, a way of observing and discovering facts about the world. You cherry-pick absurd examples of "the march of knowledge" to fit your own beliefs ... that's the opposite of what science is. Science is not "fluid" because that implies that gravity, for example, is going to start working differently at some future point because human understanding has changed.

The nature of the world didn't "change" and is not "fluid" just because we learned more about the way things really are. Our UNDERSTANDING changed. Our knowledge grew. Science did not and has not "changed" and neither has the fundamental reality of the world.

What you are implying is false or at best a really silly and obvious game of semantics.

What's the actual basis to understand that aborting a fertilized blastocyst, or an embryo, or even an early stage fetus is "murder"? Religion. Science would describe the cycles of development, or compare an actual viable, independent and breathing human with something that is not viable, not breathing and does not and cannot have a separate existence on its own. That's why "religion" is brought into the discussion, because that is what informs this insane obsession with when "human" life, i.e. personhood begins.

Are you saying you aren't religious? That is isn't your faith that truly informs your beliefs rather than a scientific evaluation of evidence? I'd like to see you make that claim outright rather than trying to weasel out of admitting what's really driving your comments here.

You're the one who accused me of devaluing your opinion because I hold a different one from you. Pot meet kettle.

Really? So now one has to be a psychologist to offer an opinion of someone else eh? When did you get your degree?

You stated that I "scare" you because I hold an opinion that is different from yours and I'm not willing to compromise to your desires to control women rather than acknowledge their right to control what happens to their own bodies. YOU brought up the word SCARE, and when you get it turned back on you, you want to try to pivot and turn and avoid responsibility for your own words. Not happening with me today or any day.

Choice has well-established legal limits and has for almost 50 years. It is limited by the viability of the fetus. When the fetus can survive on its own, when it actually does become a viable being able of living INDEPENDENTLY of the mother's body, that is the limit on Choice.

As opposed to those who only want to control (who are proven time and time again to be lying when they claim to be pro-LIFE) a person who believes in Choice often DOES NOT FAVOR OR APPROVE OF ABORTIONS FOR THEMSELVES as has been pointed out time and time again here and in every other discussion on the topic. Those who favor Choice ALSO favor every other POSSIBLE means of birth control so that the question of aborting never comes up. Those who favor Control are the ones who don't want women to use birth control, or don't want to make it easily accessible, don't want to have public education about sex and birth control because of "moral" reasons (*cough*religious*cough*) or other ridiculous and backwards positions.

You have a different opinion than is expressed in current laws? (or at least, your oversimplification of said laws)? Then work to change them. Or, more to the point, if you don't "believe" in abortion, then don't get one. Work to prevent pregnancy in every way possible. Support organizations like, say, Planned Parenthood that strive to educate and provide birth control measures.

Control your own life, work to stop what you see as "murder" ... but don't try to legislate your own "morality" (*cough*) onto other people.

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: Krazysh0t

"Abortions should be legal since it(the law) doesn't stop them from happening"

Utter Silliness

Stealing should be legal, since it(the law) doesn't stop it from happening.

Utter silliness. Were you being serious when you made that statement?

See this thread. You aren't the first to try to retort to me along these premises.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: Krazysh0t

"Abortions should be legal since it(the law) doesn't stop them from happening"

Utter Silliness

Stealing should be legal, since it(the law) doesn't stop it from happening.

Utter silliness. Were you being serious when you made that statement?

See this thread. You aren't the first to try to retort to me along these premises.

Okay Krazy...I used to think you're crazy, but now I can see your nuts!

You are basing your argument/thread linked to because something being legal makes the "stats" go down? So rape should be legal, stealing, you know what? Let's just let everyone do what they want....Who cares? The "stats" won't change...UNTIL THEY DO.....The reason behind the change you may ask? Because it is illegal now, that is why the "stats" on stealing and rape aren't as high as they could be if legalized....Your argument just depressed me, usually you are pretty talented at firing something witty but this nonsense is just absolute garbage lines of thinking!

It's legal in other parts of the world and the numbers aren't increasing because.....(oh boy)....SCIENCE!!!! YAY!!!!

a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

It's cool. I wouldn't expect you to handle that topic maturely anyways.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

It's cool. I wouldn't expect you to handle that topic maturely anyways.

Hell yeah brother! I love it when I shut you up....Highlight of my morning! Thanks buddy!

a reply to: Chrisfishenstein

Glad I could make your day.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Now you're trying to turn "science" into some kind of pseudo-entity? That has its own organic life-cycle? Science is a practice, a method, a way of observing and discovering facts about the world. You cherry-pick absurd examples of "the march of knowledge" to fit your own beliefs ... that's the opposite of what science is. Science is not "fluid" because that implies that gravity, for example, is going to start working differently at some future point because human understanding has changed. The nature of the world didn't "change" and is not "fluid" just because we learned more about the way things really are. Our UNDERSTANDING changed. Our knowledge grew. Science did not and has not "changed" and neither has the fundamental reality of the world.

Twister again

Science changes to meet current data . science facts change as our understanding does . I never said the world changes . Our perception of the world is what changes.


Does science match current data and change when new data is discovered? It shifts to current perception of the physical rules. The idea science needs to be fluid is to move with the changes in data not ridged and tied to preconceived notions.

What you are implying is false or at best a really silly and obvious game of semantics.

Holds up a mirror.

You stated that I "scare" you because I hold an opinion that is different from yours and I'm not willing to compromise to your desires to control women rather than acknowledge their right to control what happens to their own bodies. YOU brought up the word SCARE, and when you get it turned back on you, you want to try to pivot and turn and avoid responsibility for your own words. Not happening with me today or any day.

If you remember you started with the scary stuff.

I say here repeatedly that you people are FAR MORE SCARY than anyone who is pro-Choice.

right there second reply to me you brought it up . maybe you should not throw out the scary remarks unless you want it back !

Are you saying you aren't religious? That is isn't your faith that truly informs your beliefs rather than a scientific evaluation of evidence? I'd like to see you make that claim outright rather than trying to weasel out of admitting what's really driving your comments here.

again you try to goad a religious debate you have a thing about religion dont you? Quit trying to weasel your self into a religious argument.

But dont let me stop you have your religious argument .

You have to let it go maybe some believe in a religious belief its not your job to change that.

what's really driving your comments here.

replying to you . that's what driving my comments.

Those who favor Control are the ones who don't want women to use birth control, or don't want to make it easily accessible, don't want to have public education about sex and birth control because of "moral" reasons (*cough*religious*cough*) or other ridiculous and backwards positions.

From what I have seen many say no abortion use birth control instead. I guess you dont listen to that part of their argument.

(*cough*religious*cough*) trying to play religion again. Quit playing the anti god card okay .

You stated at viability abortions should stop. Is that correct?
so above is wrong and below is okay ? Then all laws concerning fetus deaths should be at the same age.

Last thought for you if advances in science lowers the viability to 20 weeks 16 weeks is that still your position ? Viability ? Remember viability has changed from 6 weeks early was dicey to the 24 week as a 40-70% chance of survival today.

a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

So, you are merely arguing semantics.

Facts do not change. Our understanding changes. The most effective method of increasing our understanding that we've found so far is science. Science leaves religion, philosophy and all other methods of effectively understanding the world far, far back in the dust.

As I said, you were arguing that facts change, and that all current scientific understanding is in some kind of limbo state. You keep arguing rather irritatingly that the world was "flat" before a certain point (however, the even the ancient Greeks and many other cultures knew that the world was round and/or spherical ((and they learned that by doing science), so please leave that spurious example to the side.)

You're really getting rather boring. At this point, you just mirror my own arguments back to me as yours.

Don't guess. You seem to have no talent at it.

Why does pointing out the religious basis of these "anti-choice" BS arguments irritate you so? Surely you're not ashamed of religion?

Because they have no origin or basis in any science.

If you know anything about human gestation, you know that there can be differences in stages numbering in days and sometimes weeks. That's why the different attempts to legislate morality fail so hard.

If you want to play an "if" game, why don't we do a very rational "if" that at puberty, both boys and girls are made temporarily infertile and have to apply for a license from their State to become fertile again.

And don't try the "Statist! You want the government to be in control of reproduction" BS, because that is EXACTLY what you and the rest of the Zealots are arguing for.

That's a very logical step that would solve all problems, since we're just taking wilds stabs in the dark at "possibility."

originally posted by: Willtell
I Don’t Know If I’m Pro-Choice After Planned Parenthood Videos

Has anyone here changed their opinion on abortion since the PP videos were shown?



I, like this writer ( is now since the PP videos) am ambivalent and always have been though these videos are disturbing to say the least.


This journalist who I don’t know much about is apparently soul searching his support for abortion since the PP videos.


Abortion is something I never wanted to get too close to being a male but perhaps something should be done about this, I don’t know.

The only thing I hate more than talking about abortion is writing about it. It’s no accident that, in 2000 columns over a quarter century, I have never—ever—written about abortion. I’ve avoided the topic like a root canal.
But that is getting harder to do with the release of what are now five gruesome,albeit edited, undercover videos by The Center for Medical Progress depicting doctors and other top officials of Planned Parenthood discussing, and even laughing about, the harvesting of baby organs, as casually as some folks talk about the weather.
It’s jarring to see doctors acting as negotiators as they dicker over the price of a fetal liver, heart, or brain, and then talk about how they meticulously go to the trouble of not crushing the most valuable body parts. This practice is perfectly legal, and for some people, it is just a business. With millions of abortions each year in America, business is good.
Who could forget Dr. Mary Gatter, Council President of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America’s Medical Directors, when, in Video #2, she tells undercover investigators that it isn’t about the money—before she zeroes in on dollars and cents?
“Let me just figure out what others are getting, and if this is in the ballpark, then it’s fine,” Gatter said. “If it’s still low, then we can bump it up.”
Then, going for broke, she added: “I want a Lamborghini.”
I want a shower.

This poor guy's wife is pro life and getting in his case

At least that’s how my wife sees it. She’s pro-life, and so she’s been tearing into me every time a new video is released. She’s not buying my argument that, as a man, I have to defer to women and trust them to make their own choices about what to do with their bodies. To her, that’s ridiculous—and cowardly.

Difficult issue...we all need more information maybe.

But I do know this: Baby’s lives matter too!

whats irking me right now is those who keep claiming "edited" or "heavily edited" videos.

The unedited versions have also been released as well as the transcripts (which the left seems to be ignoring) so this "heavily edited" excuse isn't washing anymore, people need to wake the hell up!

a reply to: kellyjay

1. Even the "unedited" videos show multiple signs of editing.

2. When viewed as "unedited" many of the comments that seem unacceptable are seen in the context that they actually happened in.

3. That said, these videos are made by known fraudsters and the fact that the "law and order" crowd here is ignoring that fact just because this happens to suit the agenda of the "anti-choice" crowd is not only telling but disgusting.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: kellyjay

1. Even the "unedited" videos show multiple signs of editing.

2. When viewed as "unedited" many of the comments that seem unacceptable are seen in the context that they actually happened in.

3. That said, these videos are made by known fraudsters and the fact that the "law and order" crowd here is ignoring that fact just because this happens to suit the agenda of the "anti-choice" crowd is not only telling but disgusting.

do you have links to back up the claim that the unedited videos are still edited?

a reply to: kellyjay

Have you watched all the "unedited" videos?

It's pretty obvious if you do that they've been cut together.

Followup: After you've watched the "unedited" versions, do you still find that they tell the same stories as the ones obviously contrived?




Here, just for starters, since you asked so nicely. :

Deceptive Edits

More Videos, More Deceptive Edits

Center for Medical Progress Guilty as Hell

Info Graphic - The Network of Lies in the Attack on Planned Parenthood

Etc.

Also, since you yourself admit that the videos first released were heavily chopped up and edited to make it look like people were saying things they weren't ... why would you trust this group of known fraudsters with the "unedited" versions?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: kellyjay

Have you watched all the "unedited" videos?

It's pretty obvious if you do that they've been cut together.

Followup: After you've watched the "unedited" versions, do you still find that they tell the same stories as the ones obviously contrived?



Here, just for starters, since you asked so nicely.

:

Deceptive Edits

More Videos, More Deceptive Edits

Center for Medical Progress Guilty as Hell

when you link me to left wing bias sources it does nothing to back up your claim

the WH came out and said the videos were fake, when asked how they knw that their response was "because planned parenthood said they were" they even said that obama hadnt watched the videos, so there is a bias going on here...i myself are pro choice and im disgusted.

yes ive watched all the videos and read all the transcripts too and im still shocked and appauled at what i saw, there definately needs to be a deep investigation into these videos, i know there are more to come, and i believe thay are building up to something huge, or why release them?

originally posted by: kellyjay

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: kellyjay

Have you watched all the "unedited" videos?

It's pretty obvious if you do that they've been cut together.

Followup: After you've watched the "unedited" versions, do you still find that they tell the same stories as the ones obviously contrived?



Here, just for starters, since you asked so nicely.

:

Deceptive Edits

More Videos, More Deceptive Edits

Center for Medical Progress Guilty as Hell

when you link me to left wing bias sources it does nothing to back up your claim

the WH came out and said the videos were fake, when asked how they knw that their response was "because planned parenthood said they were" they even said that obama hadnt watched the videos, so there is a bias going on here...i myself are pro choice and im disgusted.

yes ive watched all the videos and read all the transcripts too and im still shocked and appauled at what i saw, there definately needs to be a deep investigation into these videos, i know there are more to come, and i believe thay are building up to something huge, or why release them?

Well stated, kellyjay. I think these videos are building to something big. Planned Parenthood is very concerned...as are their apologists.