The Pyramid of Xochicalco - Does it tell the history of Atlantis?

I have just posted an article on my personal interpretation of the glyphs of the pyramid of Xochicalco and its links with the idea of a lost homeland of the gods that perished in a global cataclysm. You can find the full article here:

The Pyramid of Xochicalco - A monument to the end of times

Here is but a summary of the key points:

- The original homeland of the gods is depicted on the lower level of the pyramid as an island with a temple (perhaps indicating the sacred nature of the island), accompanied by the glyph "9 eye of reptile", traditionally associated with the wind and with Quetzalcoatl (as the god of wind). The name of the island, inscribed within a cartouche, could therefore be read as "island of the winds". The date itself might have some relationship with the date of the supposed cataclysm

- A feathered serpent, accompanied by glyphs of the wind (indicating that the serpent is a "celestial" serpent), encircles the island, describing an ondulating movement along the entire perimeter of the pyramid. This is a well known imagery in Mesoamerica associated with comets and other celestial events (after Napier and Clube).

- The obsessive repetition of the serpent motif is highly suggestive of some recurring astronomical event, like the passage of a comet
Giant flames are shown erupting from the island, as if the intent was to represent a fiery catastrophe brought about by the passage of the serpent-comet. The island itself is apparently surrounded by the snake, whose tail is depicted as something similar to a giant wave surpassing the crest of the island-temple. Finally, the island sinks and is submerged by the waters.

- In the next scene, a seated figure, likely a depiction of Quetzalcoatl himself, is shown as being carried by the waves on what appear as snakes, accompanied by the usual glyph of the Wind.

- The set of bas-reliefs immediately above contains a depiction of the "Lords of Time". These enigmatic figures are identified as priests and astronomers by their headdress (containing the trapeze and ray symbol of the year), carry a mysterious bag and are associated with a set of geographic place names. We might see in these figures a company of gods or demi-gods, carrying with them the seeds of civilization and later becoming the founders of Cities (whose names are inscribed in cartouches right above)

- The top surviving registry depicts great military leaders accompanied by fragmentary scenes, which are likely mythical in character. If the interpretation of these seated figures as the Lords of Xochicalco is correct, then the message of the pyramid becomes clear as establishing a mythical lineage of kings.
It is likely that the rulers of Xochicalco would see themselves as the direct descendants of that company of gods that first carried the seeds of civilizations to Mexico from their sunken homeland in the Eastern Ocean

- There are striking resemblances between this account and the Edfu Building Texts, which similarly picture the story of the destruction of the original homeland of the gods by an enemy (which is also curiously depicted as a snake), and the "resurrection" of this previous world of the gods.

a reply to: NeoIkonEpifanes

Personally I think the story of Atlantis is a metaphor for the pre-flood world.

I know that some don't believe in a global flood.

But it seems that every culture that has a flood in their mythology, also have a story of an advanced race of people, similar to Atlantis. Each story of such advanced race ends in a flood from God as punishment for abhorrent behavior.

Seems like too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence.

I think Atlantis is the story of everyone before the flood, and not merely one lost city. I think Plato turned the mythology into a metaphor of one city to teach morality.

So you may be correct in your finding.

Wow! Very cool thread and your page is nicely done. I am really intrigued by your 'Time Lords' interpretation.
You've got some fantastic photos too. I really like this one below. The snake looks very 'dragonish'.

a reply to: NeoIkonEpifanes

If Atlantis was as advanced as some say

There would be some strong evidence surviving Most likely Atlantis was just little bit more advanced than others

Greg

originally posted by: Starcrossd
The snake looks very 'dragonish'.

That would be because the Feathered Serpent is what eurasians would call a dragon. Both mythologies are born from witnessing the same event in 3100 bc.
A comet or cometary fragments actually passed through the upper atmosphere, and there was a likely impact in the Indian ocean , east of Madagascar, leaving the 30 kilometer diameter burkle crater.
The Meso Americans still faintly remembered the 12,800BP younger Dryas impact, and had been watching the dreadful meteor storms that plagued the Holocene, The long cycle of thier calendar is based on the multi millennia cycle of storms.
The imagery of dragons and feathered serpents is found across cultures and continents.
As a whole the earliest calendars are based on the meteor storms from the breakup of the Taurid progenitor comet.

a reply to: punkinworks10

Nice. Thanks
what do you make of the contraption between the dragon and seated man? Apologies to you and op if this was covered already- it's been a long day and I haven't been able to read through all of the original linked page yet.

a reply to: Starcrossd

There is no consensus on the meaning of the symbolism of Monument 19 from La Venta. The strange object resting above the head of the man (a priest?) sitting in the coils of the serpent is usually interpreted as a reed boat (due to its shape), even though this interpretation would require it to be turned upside down.

The seated figure also seems to be wearing an elaborate headdress. In one hand, he carries some elongated objects that could be scrolls or tablets, while in the other hand he carries a "bag", which is curiously identical to the objects apparently carried by other supposed civilizing Gods or cultural heroes from Mesopotamia. Compare with any depiction of Oannes, for instance.

originally posted by: NeoIkonEpifanes
a reply to: Starcrossd

Compare with any depiction of Oannes, for instance.

Depictions of Apkallu like Oannes (Adapa) came somewhat later than the Sumerian myth itself.

As for the bucket and cone:

We are fortunate to possess ritual instructions from the series šēp lemunutti ina bīt amēli parāsu, translated 'to block the entrance of an enemy into someone's house' . Among the relevant texts are ritual instructions that make it clear this goal is obtained by carefully crafting apotropaic ritual figurines and by burying them in strategic locations around the house to ensure the occupants are protected. Wiggermann has made a detailed study of these texts, and some details emerge: The figurines of the fish apkallu and bird Apkallu have some of their most prominent attestations in this Apotropaic function and the ritual instructions dictate that 7 bird apkallu were to be underneath the headboard of the bed, while 7 fish apkallu were to be buried underneath the threshold barring entrance to any hostile force. The Apkallu figurines were to be fashioned of clay and "all beings of clay (including the dogs and the apkallu) are called bīnūt apsê, "creature of the Apsû: (I 144): thus they are distinguished from the fro the bīnūt šamê. "the creatures of heaven", being the gods of tamarisk (l 143). The figures of clay are the şalmu sākip lemnūti ša Ea u Marduk, "the statues repelling the evil ones, of Ea and Marduk", stationed in the house "to expel the foot of evil."


The banduddû "bucket"

Wiggermann further details that The Apkallu in relief as well as in figurine sometimes carries the banduddû "bucket", in one hand. In rituals the bucket was filled with water, and it follows that "the exorcist imitates Marduk, who, on the advice of Ea, takes water from the "mouth of the twin rivers", casts his spell over it, and sprinkles it over the sick man." The effect of the sprinkling of holy water is the release (pţr) of the threatened man.

The mullilu "cone"

The most common item in the hands of the Bird Apkallu and the Fish Apkallu is the cone. The item is terms 'purification instrument' and the literal translation of mullilu is "cleaner." Wiggermann adds that the identity of the cone is still being debated: male inflorescence of the date-palm, or cone of a coniferous tree? (The Akkadian term millilu does not give a clue.)

Wiggermann draws some conclusions here, some if which bear on the reliefs featuring also the Sacred tree:

b) One Object, the cone, appears only when the figure in question carries a bucket in its left hand. The value of the cone must in some way be dependent on the value of the bucket.
c) The texts indicate that the bucket contained holy water effectuating "release." As was proposed before, the dependent cone "purifier" (mulillu) held in the right hand activated the holy water, it was a sprinckler (Klengel-Brandt, Rittig, CAD M/1 189a.).
d) The figures carrying buckets (and cones) are engaged in a purification ritual. As will be seen below, this accords well with their function of apkallu.
e) Figures carrying cones point their cone at the sacred tree, the king, the courtiers (stearns AfOB 15 64ff.). Figures standing in doorways and apparently pointing their cones at nothing, are perhaps best thought of as pointing their cones at passing visitors, just as weapons and the gestures of greeting are directed at the visitors, and not at the building.
f) The sacred tree benefits from the activities of the genii, the genii do not need the tree, cf. Stearns AfOB 15 70ff. It is not necessary to understand the meaning of the tree in order to understand the meaning of the figures with bucket and cone. For the tree we refer to Poroda AASOR 24 108ff., Madhloon Sumer 26 137ff, Stearns AfOB 15 70ff. Genge AcOR 33 321 ff., Hrouda BaM 3 41ff., Kolbe Reliefprogramme 83ff., Bliebtrue Flora 37ff., and passsim, Parker Essays Wilkinson 38.

Read more: enenuru.proboards.com...

These figures were merely charms against evil spirits. There's no myth of Adapa walking around with a bucket.

Harte

Double post

Here is a really good book on Xochicalco,
Mesoamerica After the decline of Teotihuacan

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: NeoIkonEpifanes

But it seems that every culture that has a flood in their mythology, also have a story of an advanced race of people, similar to Atlantis. Each story of such advanced race ends in a flood from God as punishment for abhorrent behavior.

No, that's about as far from the truth as I've ever seen.
The Sumerians who originated the flood story which later appears in the bible make no claims for an advanced race, neither do the Akkadians who copied it, or the Babylonians who followed them. Then the Biblical version also has no advanced race. There are hundreds of flood stories which are recorded, and also have no advanced race.

Can you give me a list of the cultures you are making claims for
This is your claim
"it seems that every culture that has a flood in their mythology, also have a story of an advanced race of people"
Please support it

I have always found deeply fascinating the analogies between the various "civilizing" Gods across different world cultures. If we look at the "New" World, for instance, we find a very widespread tradition of civilizing "Gods" and cultural heroes coming from the Sea: Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan in Meso-America, Viracocha, Bochica, Naylamp and their multiple incarnations in South America.

Yet, the most striking of all is perhaps the figure of Quetzalcoatl. There is an uncanny similarity between the traditional iconography of this god and that of the Mesopotamian Oannes. They both came from the Sea and later returned to the Sea, brought with them the seeds of civilization, the arts, architecture, astronomy and agricolture, and are similarly depicted as wearing some sort of elaborate suit - Quetzalcoatl in a serpent/dragon skin, his head covered by a "helmet" resembling a snake head; Oannes wearing a fish skin, with his head alo covered by a "helmet". They carry very similar objects (see the "bucket" portrayed on the Monument 19 of La Venta and in Mesopotamian depictions of Oannes), and they both started sophisticated pyramid-building cultures.

Would be interesting to discuss your thoughts on the origins of this highly peculiar iconography and the multiple similarities from across the Atlantic.

originally posted by: NeoIkonEpifanes
I have always found deeply fascinating the analogies between the various "civilizing" Gods across different world cultures. If we look at the "New" World, for instance, we find a very widespread tradition of civilizing "Gods" and cultural heroes coming from the Sea: Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan in Meso-America, Viracocha, Bochica, Naylamp and their multiple incarnations in South America.

Yet, the most striking of all is perhaps the figure of Quetzalcoatl. There is an uncanny similarity between the traditional iconography of this god and that of the Mesopotamian Oannes. They both came from the Sea and later returned to the Sea, brought with them the seeds of civilization, the arts, architecture, astronomy and agricolture, and are similarly depicted as wearing some sort of elaborate suit - Quetzalcoatl in a serpent/dragon skin, his head covered by a "helmet" resembling a snake head; Oannes wearing a fish skin, with his head alo covered by a "helmet". They carry very similar objects (see the "bucket" portrayed on the Monument 19 of La Venta and in Mesopotamian depictions of Oannes), and they both started sophisticated pyramid-building cultures.

Would be interesting to discuss your thoughts on the origins of this highly peculiar iconography and the multiple similarities from across the Atlantic.

Oannes was from Berossus Babyloniaca, and is based on Adapa
who was described as coming from the sea wearing a fishskin and a fish hat for one simple reason
Adapa was a fisherman
You robably don't know this because you didn't research it yourself and are relying on some rubbish from a pseudo historian like Graham Hancock
You probably should have taken the time to look at Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org...

The first of these, Adapa, also known as Uan, the name given as Oannes by Berossus

Adapa as a fisherman was iconographically portrayed as a fish-man composite

But you know, if you don't want to believe that, then you can read the original story, translated from cuneiform.
www.sacred-texts.com...
Especially this part

He was a semi-divine being and was the wise man and priest of the temple of Ea at Eridu, which he provided with the ritual bread and water. In the exercise of this duty he carried on fishing upon the Persian Gulf.

The fact of the matter is that Berossus is so wrong on a lot of his claims that its almost as if he invented a lot of it to glorify the past of Babylonia,


I'm going to have to ask you what Mesopotamian depictions of Oannes you are referring to, can you post a picture

Here is what Berossus tells of Oannes (from the Chronicon of Eusebius of Caesarea):

In the first year there made its appearance, from a part of the Erythraean sea which bordered upon Babylonia, an animal endowed with reason, who was called Oannes. (According to the account of Apollodorus) the whole body of the animal was like that of a fish; and had under a fish's head another head , and also feet below, similar to those of a man, subjoined to the fish's tail. His voice too, and language, was articulate and human; and a representation of him is preserved even to this day.

This Being in the day-time used to converse with men; but took no food at that season; and he gave them an insight into letters and sciences, and every kind of art. He taught them to construct houses, to found temples, to compile laws, and explained to them the principles of geometrical knowledge. He made them distinguish the seeds of the earth, and showed them how to collect fruits; in short, he instructed them in every thing which could tend to soften manners and humanize mankind. From that time, so universal were his instructions, nothing has been added material by way of improvement. When the sun set, it was the custom of this Being to plunge again into the sea, and abide all night in the deep; for he was amphibious.

And here is about Quetzalcoatl, from Bernardino de Sahagun and Fray Juan de Torquemada:

In Tollan dwelt Quetzalcoatl. And in Tollan all the arts and crafts that we know of were first practised, for Quetzalcoatl taught them to the people there. He taught them the smelting of silver and the clearing and setting of precious stones; he taught the craft of building with stones; he taught them how to make statues, and paint signs in books, and keep count of the moons and suns. All crafts except the craft of war Quetzalcoatl taught the people of Tollan

But others say that when he reached the sea-shore he divested himself of his robe with its bright feathers, of his snake-skin mask of the colour of turquoise, and that, leaving these vestments upon the shore, he cast himself into a fire and was consumed to ashes

originally posted by: NeoIkonEpifanes
Here is what Berossus tells of Oannes (from the Chronicon of Eusebius of Caesarea):

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand
Oannes is based on Adapa, the claims made for Adapa/Oannes are therefore either made up by Berossus to impress Antiochus I Soter, or are subject to over 2500 years of Chinese whispers/telephone.

We have the original text of the story of Adapa/Oannes and he is clearly a wise fisherman character, there are a few depictions of Adapa/Oannes and he is clearly a man wearing a fish costume which in Mesopotamian art, just means he was a fisherman. Priests later emulated him by wearing fish costumes as well.

Even if this were not the case, highlighting two similar stories from two cultures which were never in contact out of many thousands during the Holocene is not even slightly scientific.

A feathered serpent dates from the first century BCE, but he wasn't known as Quetzlcoatl until a thousand years after that and the text you are using is 700 years later during the time of the Spanish conquest
Adapa dates from more than four thousand years earlier.

So?

What's a few thousand years between friends?

BTW, did you catch the link I posted?

You a member there?

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
BTW, did you catch the link I posted

Nope ????

You seem to ignore altogether the possibility that all these civilizing "gods" had the same origins and were perhaps themselves "missionaries" or survivors from some more advanced civilization.

originally posted by: NeoIkonEpifanes
You seem to ignore altogether the possibility that all these civilizing "gods" had the same origins and were perhaps themselves "missionaries" or survivors from some more advanced civilization.

If the Adapa/Quetzlcoatl rubbish you've been posting is your evidence for that then you are probably agendised and delusional and your work as a result is completely worthless, claiming that I have ignored something when the evidence I just presented has made you look ill informed and stupid is evidence that you are ignoring the facts, not me

The concept of "civilising gods" is a product of 1980s pseudo historians and has been completely debunked on numerous occasions, where were you when that was happening.

a reply to: Marduk
So Quetzalcoatl, Oannes, Viracocha, Thunupa, Gucumatz, Kukulkan, Naylamp, just to reference a few, are all 1980s inventions?
Not only is your arrogance and mental closure abysmal, also your ignorance is.

I have very little tolerance for internet forum wannabes such as yourself, who quote entirely unrelated information as evidence for their own pet theories (yes, yours is a theory as well, no more, no less) or count on other users' ignorance to present irrelevant pseudo-scientific information as "fact" - just counting on the assumption that very few would be willing to waste as much time and energy to reply.

I wonder whether you actually get paid for this, or you just have an inordinate amount of time to waste. As it is not my case, I will very happily put you and your "sodales" in my ignore list.