IRS Fines Millions for Not Having Obamacare

originally posted by: Gryphon66
You would prefer that the laws be ignored?

Yes.

7.5 milion working poor will be fined for not buying into the healthcare program. Im sure they can afford it, though. What is it, 3k apeice? For a working poor stiff, thats pocket change

I dont have a dog in this fight but wanted to add some clarificaiton

The mandate, requiring every American to purchase health insurance, appeared in a 1989 published proposal by Stuart M. Butler of the conservative Heritage Foundation called "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans," which included a provision to "mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance."

The Heritage Foundation "substantially revised" its proposal four years later, according to a 1994 analysis by the Congressional Budget Office. But the idea of an individual health insurance mandate later appeared in two bills introduced by Republican lawmakers in 1993, according to the non-partisan research group ProCon.org. Among the supporters of the bills were senators Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, who today oppose the mandate under current law.

In 2006, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, who was then governor of Massachusetts, signed off on a law requiring individuals of the state to purchase health insurance. American Bridge 21st Century, a Democratic opposition research group, on Wednesday released a 2006 video in which Romney says he is “very pleased” with the mandate.

“With regards to the individual mandate, the individual responsibility program that I proposed, I was very pleased that the compromise between the two houses includes the personal responsibility mandate. That is essential for bringing the health care costs down for everyone and getting everyone the health insurance they need," Romney says in the video.

In 2007, a bi-partisan Senate bill authored by Senators Bob Bennett, R-Utah, and Ron Wyden, D-Oregon, contained a mandate. In 2009, however, Republican senators declared such a provision “unconstitutional.”

During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama expressed opposition to a mandate requiring all Americans to buy health care insurance. In a Feb. 28, 2008, interview on the Ellen DeGeneres show, Obama sought to distinguish himself from then-candidate Hillary Clinton by saying, "Both of us want to provide health care to all Americans. There’s a slight difference, and her plan is a good one. But, she mandates that everybody buy health care.

and..

This is odd because the individual mandate, the cornerstone of Obamacare, was originally a conservative idea. It was first proposed by the Heritage Foundation in 1989. And scores of Republicans—not just Mitt Romney—have backed the idea in the past couple of decades. Here are some of the GOPers who supported Obamacare before Obama:

1. Rick Santorum? The Allentown Morning Call reported several times in 1994 that Santorum wanted to "require individuals to buy health insurance rather than forcing employers to pay for benefits." Santorum denies allegations that he ever supported an individual mandate.

2. President George H.W. Bush: In 1991, Mark Pauly, an adviser to the first Bush, and now a conservative health economist, came up with a Heritage-style health care proposal for the president as an alternative to the employer-based mandate that Democrats were pushing at the time.

3. Former Vice President Dan Quayle: He was down with the Heritage idea too.

4. Mitt Romney: Romneycare was Romney's signature legislative achievement as governor of Massachusetts, and it served as a model for Obamacare. During the 2012 campaign, the presidential contender had trouble deciding what his position was on Obamacare, and he deflected the blame for having conceived a similar plan; at one debate he noted that "we got the idea of an individual mandate…from [Newt Gingrich]."

5. Newt Gingrich: Though he reversed his position in May 2011, Gingrich had been a big supporter of the individual mandate since his early days in the House. In 1992 and 1993, when Republicans were looking for alternatives to Hillary Clinton's health care plan, many, including then-House minority whip Gingrich, backed the Heritage idea. (Gingrich has said that most conservatives supported an individual mandate for health insurance at the time.)

Twenty of his fellow GOPers cosponsored a 1993 health care bill which included an individual mandate and vouchers for poor people. As health scholar Avik Roy wrote at Forbes in 2012, "Given that there were 43 Republicans in the Senate of the 103rd Congress, these 20 comprised nearly half of the Republican Senate Caucus at that time." Here are those lawmakers:

6. Sen. Bob Dole (R-Kansas)

7. Sen. John Chafee (R-R.I.)

8. Sen. Robert Bennet (R-Utah)

9. Sen. Christopher Bond (R-Mo.)

10. Sen. George Brown (R-Colo.)

11. Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.)

12. Sen. Pete Domenici (R-N.M.)

13. Sen. David Durenberger (R-Minn.)

14. Sen. Duncan Faircloth (R-N.C.)

15. Sen. William Cohen (R-Maine)

16. Sen. Slade Gorton (R-Wash.)

17. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa)

18. Sen. Mark Hatfield (R-Ore.)

19. Sen. Nancy Kassebaum (R-Kansas)

20. Sen. Dick Lugar (R-Ind.)

21. Sen. Alan Simpson (R-Wyo.)

22. Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.)

23. Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska)

24. Sen. John Warner (R-Va.)

25. Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah)

Many of these folks changed their minds after the individual mandate became a Dem idea.

I paid my Obamacare fine for not purchasing insurance.
I pay for my health care. I make my own medical decisions based on my consultations with my docs.
My docs love me because they don't have to spend time on paperwork or wonder about rejections because of transposed numbers. I go to the doc, I get medical care, I pay them when the visit concludes.
When I dropped my health care insurance, I began depositing the premium in an account which was formerly my health savings account. Even after I paid my fine out of that account, I'm so far ahead of the game it's really quite stunning!

When I think of all the years I paid for health care---just in case---never met a deductible since I had cataract surgery in 2000---it boggles my mind. I could have bought a house for all the health care insurance I've paid out. I've paid for all or part of my health care insurance since 1978 and in all those years, I've only met the deductible three times, each time for some sort of surgery.

I refuse to pay for a policy that "shall" contain maternity care when I'm 61 years old and have been medically sterile since 1982---no uterus---no babies---but try and tell that the politicians who wrote that bat-crap crazy law. I refuse to deal with an insurance company who can determine which tests I must undergo with threats to cancel my policy if I refuse to submit. Yes, it happened. A woman who claimed to be a nurse from Anthem called me to tell me that because my records didn't show a pap smear in the past three years I must make an appointment and get one or my policy would be canceled.
When I pointed out to her that I hadn't had a pap smear since 1982, the reason being that I underwent removal of my uterus. Now, since she had said she was a nurse, I made the assumption that she would know immediately why I didn't NEED a pap smear exam ever! (You can't examine what isn't there!) But no, common sense just didn't work with her and she continued to insist that I must get a pap smear or lose my policy. So I told her to cancel my policy if that was what would satisfy her company, then we could let the lawyers sort it out.
My Beloved went through the same stinky stuff with Humana but his policy is a group policy which has a clause that specifies that individual policies can't be canceled except for non-payment. But that didn't keep them from calling him once a month for a year and insisting that he needed one test or another.

I'll continue to pay the fine and I'll continue to protest the stupid law that requires it. But I can't help but chuckle when I think of the twisting, bending and plain ole trickery practiced by the Black-Robed Tribe when they ruled that it was just fine to fine people for not buying a product. Made me wish for a time machine so I could bring in some learned minds to adjust their viewpoint. I have to wonder what Patrick Henry would say

ETA: I don't really give a rat's patootie whose idea it was. It is a BAD idea, an unconstitutional idea. It just makes me more determined to see both political parties rounded up and run out of town on a rail because it shows that they are colluding to fleece us and hand our money over to their political pals.

a reply to: Agit8dChop

Right. Point taken, and already known: both parties have taken turns rowing this boat.

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: buster2010

The individual mandate was a republican idea. It was dreamed up by the Heritage foundation and the Republicans tried for years to get it passed.

The Heritage Foundation never endorsed it.

The "paper" was written by one author who claimed independence.

Paper With Heritage Foundation on Cover, First Page, Etc.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: buster2010

The individual mandate was a republican idea. It was dreamed up by the Heritage foundation and the Republicans tried for years to get it passed.

The Heritage Foundation never endorsed it.

The "paper" was written by one author who claimed independence.

Paper With Heritage Foundation on Cover, First Page, Etc.

Right there on the front page is the disclaimer: "Nothing written here is to be construed as necessarily reflecting the views of the Heritage Foundation....." had you bothered to read your source.

The Kentucky Heritage Council published the proceedings of their research into archaeology and anthropology each year in the form of papers presented at conferences. This doesn't mean that every paper presented in the publications are endorsed by the Council. Same with this publication. Publication doesn't always mean endorsement. Just so you know...

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan



The ObamaCare Mandate and How You Can Qualify for an Exemption from the Tax “Penalty”

originally posted by: diggindirt

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: buster2010

The individual mandate was a republican idea. It was dreamed up by the Heritage foundation and the Republicans tried for years to get it passed.

The Heritage Foundation never endorsed it.

The "paper" was written by one author who claimed independence.

Paper With Heritage Foundation on Cover, First Page, Etc.

Right there on the front page is the disclaimer: "Nothing written here is to be construed as necessarily reflecting the views of the Heritage Foundation....." had you bothered to read your source.

The Kentucky Heritage Council published the proceedings of their research into archaeology and anthropology each year in the form of papers presented at conferences. This doesn't mean that every paper presented in the publications are endorsed by the Council. Same with this publication. Publication doesn't always mean endorsement. Just so you know...

Are you kidding? Did you read the "disclaimer"? "Necessarily reflecting the views of the Heritage Foundation"

Heritage Foundation on the Cover
Heritage Foundation on the Top of the First Page
Heritage Foundation address BELOW this CYA Disclaimer ...

And what is ABOVE the CYA Disclaimer ...

Heritage is classified as a Section 501(c)(3) organization under the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 and is recognized as a publicly supported organization described in section 509(a)(1) and 170(b)(1)(A)(vi) of the Code. Individuals, corporations, companies, associations and foundations are eligible to support the work of The Heritage Foundation through tax-deductible gifts.

But, nope ... the Heritage Foundation had nothing to do with it. They just published it, put their name on it, supported the author, etc.

HINT: Can 501(c)(3)s try to "influence" Congress?

501(c)(3) exemptions apply to corporations organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, literary, or educational purposes, or for testing for public safety, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition, or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals. 501(c)(3) exemption applies also for any non-incorporated community chest, fund, cooperating association or foundation that is organized and operated exclusively for those purposes.

Source

You folks are simply amazing.

Oh, and who is Dr. Stuart M. Butler ???

Stuart Butler is a Senior Fellow in Economic Studies at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC. Prior to joining Brookings, he spent 35 years at The Heritage Foundation, as Director of the Center for Policy Innovation and earlier as Vice-President for Domestic and Economic Policy Studies.

Emphasis mine.

List of Dr. Butler's Publications at the Heritage Foundation Website

from that well-known Marxist publication Forbes Magazine, 2-7-2012

... as Romney said in a debate in Las Vegas last October, “we got the idea of an individual mandate…from [Newt Gingrich], and [Newt] got it from the Heritage Foundation.” Politically, it’s an important point, because Romney is inaccurately being portrayed as some kind of left-wing outlier, when in fact there were some major conservative institutions (like Heritage) and figures (like Gingrich) who supported the mandate. Last weekend, long-time Heritage health-policy chief Stuart Butler took to USA Today to explain his past support for the mandate.

... and from the same article ...

Republican support for the individual mandate

As far as I have been able to find, Stuart’s 1989 brief is the first published proposal of an individual mandate in the context of private-sector-managed health systems. In 1991, Mark Pauly and others developed a proposal for George H.W. Bush that also included an individual mandate. While others credit Stanford economist Alain Enthoven with the idea, Enthoven’s earliest published reference to an individual mandate was an indirect one in the 1992 Jackson Hole paper.

In 1992 and 1993, some Republicans in Congress, seeking an alternative to Hillarycare, used these ideas as a foundation for their own health-reform proposals. One such bill, the Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993, or HEART, was introduced in the Senate by John Chafee (R., R.I.) and co-sponsored by 19 other Senate Republicans, including Christopher Bond, Bob Dole, Chuck Grassley, Orrin Hatch, Richard Lugar, Alan Simpson, and Arlen Specter. Given that there were 43 Republicans in the Senate of the 103rd Congress, these 20 comprised nearly half of the Republican Senate Caucus at that time. The HEART Act proposed health insurance vouchers for low-income individuals, along with an individual mandate.

Newt Gingrich, who was House Minority Leader in 1993, was also in favor of an individual mandate in those days. Gingrich continued to support a federal individual mandate as recently as May of last year.

It would seem that 1990s conservatives weren’t concerned with the constitutional implications of allowing Congress to force people to buy a private product. “I don’t remember that being raised at all,” Mark Pauly told Ezra Klein last year. “The way it was viewed by the Congressional Budget Office in 1994 was, effectively, as a tax…So I’ve been surprised by that argument.”

Democrats may well "own" the ACA, but Republicans and the Heritage Foundation "OWN" the Individual Mandate.

two flags....i'm paying the fine....but not willingly, they steal it by slanted evil....

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: xuenchen

Seems to me the Individual Mandate, a Republican idea, calls for those who don't have insurance to be penalized via tax penalties.

How is it that the IRS is doing anything except it's duty under the law?

You would prefer that the laws be ignored?

How is that supposed to work when the system is corrupt? In a normal world, bad laws would be challenged and overturned and confirmed traitors would be hung. But this isn't a normal world, it's bizarro world where wrong is right, up is down and traitors garner respect.

Cheers - Dave

It is a bit of a scam that the American people are kept in the dark about Govt. all and everyone included. Here in Japan you premium can not go over $6500 USD, even if you make millions. You do not have a deductible of what ever before you start paying into your doctor bill. America need to wake up or just say wtf and keep itself a 3rd world nation. Terrible to see that Americans don't have affordable health care for its citizens. Maybe if the homosexual community starts demanding it with their "don't be against us" sh... maybe you guys will have it health care one day.

Rather than squabble among partisan lines, why don't people go straight for the jugular vein?
There would be no Obamacare if it was not for Lobbyists. Fact!

The blame for Obamacare does not lie with the majority of Americans working paycheck to paycheck.
The problem lies with Politicians and their corporate cronies that exist on both sides of the political spectrum.

www.opensecrets.org...

Top Lobbying Industries

Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $3,146,090,212
Insurance $2,190,651,832
Electric Utilities $2,013,127,133
Electronics Mfg & Equip $1,823,347,451
Business Associations $1,811,811,643
Oil & Gas $1,715,405,541
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $1,416,425,661
Education $1,399,862,870
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $1,310,021,801
Telecom Services $1,271,840,866
Securities & Investment $1,264,774,284
Civil Servants/Public Officials $1,216,181,432
Real Estate $1,215,135,758
Health Professionals $1,189,983,794
Air Transport $1,125,384,003
Misc Issues $929,225,311
Automotive $891,793,138
Defense Aerospace $887,354,553
Health Services/HMOs $863,410,051
TV/Movies/Music $851,379,595

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: xuenchen

Does anyone really think that this sort of behavior isn't causing people to recoil from productive activity?

Define "productive activity", please.

There is a threshold where you can get a subsidy. Once you reach it, you are in the tank for the total amount of the policy which is extremely expensive. So, you have a choice - you either turn down work and raises to stay under that threshold or you go just above it and get slammed for a policy you cannot afford and go bankrupt.

Just like all our other social safety net policies, this one is all or nothing.

There is no gradual weaning.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Keep telling yourself whatever you have to.

The fact is that it took Democrats to pass it on all of us. Until then, it was an example of bad policy in Massachusetts. And I think it was demonstrating how bad it was there quite well.

Not every idea a think tank has is good, and it doesn't matter which kind of think tank we're talking about. But a think tank exists to come up with ideas. They don't make them law.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: xuenchen

Seems to me the Individual Mandate, a Republican idea, calls for those who don't have insurance to be penalized via tax penalties.

How is it that the IRS is doing anything except it's duty under the law?

You would prefer that the laws be ignored?

How is that supposed to work when the system is corrupt? In a normal world, bad laws would be challenged and overturned and confirmed traitors would be hung. But this isn't a normal world, it's bizarro world where wrong is right, up is down and traitors garner respect.

Cheers - Dave

When was the last legal public hanging again? What, 1936? Do you remember that? It wasn't a traitor, it was a Black man charged with raping a White woman.

I'm talking about the IRS following the law that was passed by our Congress and signed by our President.

You seem to be making a generalized statement of your opinion about ... the state of the world.

Unfortunately the corrupt and traitors write laws to enrich themselves an their handlers to the detriment of the general population, a term used in prisons. The IRS is simply an extension of the corruption that can attack the weakest, lower 99%, of that general population.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: Gryphon66

People who can sort through this:

obamacarefacts.com...

likely have the intellect and insight to not need to. LOL....anyone who was doing their own taxes before is likely to struggle. When my wife and I were minimm wage earners, we didn't think of ourselves as "poor".

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Keep telling yourself whatever you have to.

The fact is that it took Democrats to pass it on all of us. Until then, it was an example of bad policy in Massachusetts. And I think it was demonstrating how bad it was there quite well.

Not every idea a think tank has is good, and it doesn't matter which kind of think tank we're talking about. But a think tank exists to come up with ideas. They don't make them law.

I posted the facts above. They are well-known. The individual mandate was not "just a policy in Massachusetts" it was part and parcel of every Republican plan from 1989 to 2010. And the Heritage Foundation is not merely "another think tank" ... it's the breeding ground for most Republican policies.

What amazes, astounds and stupefies me is that Republicans and right-wingers just try (as above) anything possible to duck reality and will simply and overtly LIE to try to duck the facts of history.

Just own it, it's your idea.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Gryphon66

People who can sort through this:

obamacarefacts.com...

likely have the intellect and insight to not need to. LOL....anyone who was doing their own taxes before is likely to struggle. When my wife and I were minimm wage earners, we didn't think of ourselves as "poor".

Don't disagree I hate bureaucrat speak as well. My point was (and is) that there are means in the ACA for the working poor to avoid the penalty.