Universalism ( All will be saved) and biblical verses that support this

originally posted by: freedom7
So I'm reading through the bible. Have believed in the word for quite some time, but have felt very torn for quite some time now. I've met Athetists/ Muslims, Agnostics etc... who had bigger hearts then Christians and even me

A couple of things. I'll come back to the quote above.

1) Jesus Christ is "the saviour of all, especially those who believe". Indeed. What this means is that "Christ died once, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God". Christ didn't just die to take away sin, He "became sin for us", taking the punishment for it ALL. This means that Christ is effective for the salvation of all who believe, and it's this point that Scripture constantly reiterates. Salvation is through Christ alone.

2) Back to your quote now.
You've put works in the centre of your salvation equation. Nothing in all of Scripture suggests that salvation is based upon what you do. This is, in fact, what sets Christianity apart from world religion. "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us", and "what the law was powerless to do, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh".
Christianity is not about doing anything for God - its entire thrust is to demonstrate that you are powerless to do anything to save yourself. This is the entire point of the law (read the book of Romans for that - all of it); to demonstrate that man is utterly helpless before God, and totally dependent upon Him for salvation.

3) The other fallacy you have is that God "sends people to hell for not believing".
This isn't at all the point. The point is that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". You're currently drowning. That's the picture Scripture paints. You're helpless, drowning, sinful and without hope.
Jesus Christ is the lifeline.
Refusing Christ isn't about "hey, you don't believe what I do, so you're going to hell". It's quite literally about the fact that the ONLY way to salvation has already been provided for you in Christ ("I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father except through Me"), but you're not willing. The picture is of a drowning man refusing the rope from the rescue helicopter.

If you actually want to get to heaven on your own merit, by being good, feel free to try.
...but as Romans says, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Did you catch that?
"The Glory of God". That's the standard. You want to get to heaven on your own merit, there's the bar.

"...but while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

I hope this question does not de rail this thread. but before Christ came and died for our sins . how was salvation found?
or was everyone before jesus doomed to eternal hellfire until the final judgment ?

a reply to: navione

There are different thoughts. One is that the dead are not actually in Heaven but sleeping and they will wake to Heaven at the Resurrection of the last days. At that time, the dead in Christ will know Him and be saved. This could be potentially thought of as those who died and were not Christian before. It is thought that the OT Jews who knew God and were not taken up into Heaven fall into this camp.

Another thought is that again the dead of the Old Testament are not actually in Heaven but a place called Paradise waiting for Him to come to them, and at the end, they will be saved at the Resurrection.

Of course, now, I'm not sure any of that applies since the New Covenant of the Gospel is in force where it wasn't before.

There is another poster who has done more study on that question than I have.

a reply to: freedom7

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man WILL BE FORGIVEN, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Mathew 12:32

28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven ALL their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” Mark 3

Although Christians accept Christ is the Holy Spirit, and thus have a more spiritual connection to Christ, the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Spirt of Love and Reason, the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit within us is the Way, the Truth and the Life. If one doesn't believe Jesus is the Holy Spirit, but does believe in and follow the Holy Spirit, they will be forgiven for not accepting that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

This is not complicated like the church makes it to be, and agrees perfectly with the word's that are accredited directly to Jesus. It is about following the Holy Spirit.

The internal voice of Love and Reason, the Holy Spirit guides us from within with the same message of Christ found in the bible. To Love God, and Love your neighbors. If you do those two things you can be forgiven for everything else.

Ghandi is a perfect example of a man who followed the Holy Spirit but questioned the divinity of Jesus Christ in the flesh. He is/was forgiven, since he did not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

We are not instructed to follow the physical body of Christ, we are instructed to follow the Holy Spirit Within.

If a Buddhist follows the Nobel Truths and the Divine Light, the Holy Spirit, he is following Christ since their is only One Devine Light. And the Buddhist teaching predate the Name Jesus Christ.

If the Buddhist follows the Holy Spirit they are forgiven if they did not understand that Jesus is the Devine Light that they follow.

There are many loving people who believe in the Holy Spirit but don't consider Jesus the Holy Spirit. There is no reason to think that these loving people are condemned for being mistaken.

And Jesus already forgave them in the two verses I quoted.

All of the verses in the NT can be rewritten as I have done below with John 3:16 without changing the Spiritual Messages within the texts.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave us His Only Holy Spirit, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

By changing from the name Jesus Christ to the Holy Spirit, the followers of other religions can get a clearer understanding of the message found in the bible.

For those who believe that Christ is the Holy Spirit they will form a deeper bond, knowing that the perfection within them came as man and sacrificed himself for humanity.

Not quite universalism but close.

I don't think religious people will blaspheme the Spirit of Love and Reason. Nor would the Atheist Blaspheme the Spiritual man for believing the Voice of Love and Reason is Devine.

Double post

why wouldn`t everyone go to heaven? You`ll have no body or material things,there`s no religion, so murder and stealing would be out of the question. The worst that that they could do in heaven is go around thinking hateful things but that doesn`t hurt anyone except for themselves. they`ll spend eternity hating with no way to act out that hate.maybe they will eventually realize how useless hate is.
all the things that we hate other people for on earth won`t exist in heaven.
Think about it, no religion to hate against
no race to hate against
no rich or poor to hate against
no fat people or skinny people to hate against

I see no reason why everybody won`t go to heaven.If the whole point of not being allowed into heaven is as some kind of punishment for what we did here then all I can say is, one man`s heaven is another man`s hell. The hateful people in heaven will be in there own self imposed hell, going around filled with hate but no way to express or act out that hate and no way to even know who to direct that hate towards.

I don`t see any point in keeping anyone out of heaven.

originally posted by: Tardacus
why wouldn`t everyone go to heaven? You`ll have no body or material things,there`s no religion, so murder and stealing would be out of the question. The worst that that they could do in heaven is go around thinking hateful things but that doesn`t hurt anyone except for themselves. they`ll spend eternity hating with no way to act out that hate.maybe they will eventually realize how useless hate is.

I see no reason why everybody won`t go to heaven.If the whole point of not being allowed into heaven is as some kind of punishment for what we did here then all I can say is, one man`s heaven is another man`s hell. The hateful people in heaven will be in there own self imposed hell, going around filled with hate but no way to express or act out that hate and no way to even know who to direct that hate towards.

According to someone who visited Heaven (Dr. Eby I believe), thoughts in Heaven become actions immediately...

Having been an amateur botanist as a schoolboy, I immediately decided to pick a bouquet. To my amazement the unexpected happened. My thought (to stoop and pick flowers) became the act! Here in Paradise I discovered that there is no time lag between thought and act. A word, spoken or thought, became fact! (I instantly realized how the heavens and earth were so quickly made from nothing that appeared: God had simply thought what He wanted, and there it was.

www.bibleprobe.com...

Events in Paradise were occurring unbelievable fast. Thoughts and actions there seemingly vie with each other to be completed instantly. The environment of Heaven with its timelessness, weightlessness, and lack of all earthly confusion and stress results in a type of "joy" unattainable in this world system. I simply stood (floated) quietly, peacefully, entranced in an experience which only a Living, Loving God could have arranged for His followers!

www.ctestimony.org...

I don`t see any point in keeping anyone out of heaven.

God will not force anyone against their will to go to Heaven.

As free moral agents, every person makes the choice as to where he will spend eternity.

Jesus: "I'm a gentleman Nick, I'll never force myself on you or anyone.

Jesus: Nick, what would be more unjust and unfair, for me to steal you at the moment of your death and force you to live in my presence and in my will for all eternity.

Jesus: Hell on the other hand is a place where you'll be completely free from all of my "though shalt nots"... FOREVER."

Melisa: But surely no one would choose that if they knew you really existed?

Jesus: Not so, nobody goes into hell blindfolded. In one way or another, I've revealed myself to everyone.

Melisa: But if they could just see you...

Jesus: Not even that would be enough. Look at satan, he stood before me in the very throne room of God. But he thought the beauty and the power bestowed was somehow earned. Gave himself over to pride. Scratch any sin and just below the surface you'll find pride...

Jesus: "I don’t want you to wallow in sin and rebellion and guilt. I want you to thrive in unending peace and joy. There isn’t one human being on this planet that’s an accident. I hand formed you in your mother’s womb and I formed you for a purpose. I put before you a path of love and worship. And the degree with which you’ll experience love and joy and the good things of life is the degree to which you’ll bend to my will.

Jesus: Everyone dies, Nick, but not everyone needs to fear death. If you abide in me, you’ll be stepping free from this fallen world and into glory.

Melisa: Is that what heaven’s like? Glory?

Jesus: It’s more than glory, Melissa. It’s peace and love and joy. Can you imagine living in the fullness of the warmth of God’s light? There are no words in the human vocabulary that can describe it. It’s a place where there is no suffering. It’s a place where every tear is wiped from your eyes. There’s no sadness. There’s no pain. And you know, Melissa, one day you and I will walk on the streets of gold and we’ll talk about this night together."

Jesus:You know, everyday I get millions of complaints about this world all the greed and selfishness poverty, starvation, the wars, the murders, the abuse of children I hardly recognize this place anymore. It bears so literal resemblance to the garden that I created for you, but it’s not hell, Nick. Even now, there’s sunshine on a spring day, there’s starry night and desert sky, there’s a gentle breeze on a summer afternoon and the smell of flowers, the song of birds, There’s even people who are willing to lend a helping hand to the helpless and there’s love Nick, there’s still love.

...out of love, he allowed Lucifer to choose his own way and this is the same freedom the Lord gives to each of us. He's not going to force anyone to go to heaven that chooses that they don't want to, even if they once did. God doesn't make decisions for us, but He allows us to choose for ourselves. This has to be true, since sin entered the world because of bad choices made by Adam and Eve.

The Lord gave each of His created beings a free will. After we have accepted Jesus as our savior, we still have the freedom to turn back to a life of sin and to reject His grace. The Lord speaks about people being in danger of having their names removed from the Book of Life. (Exodus 32:33 & Revelation 3:5)

Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?

I haven't had time to read all of the replies so forgive me if this has already been covered. I sort of lean towards a semi-universal idea of salvation. The bible mentions two resurrections. I believe all will be given the chance to know Christ and be given a choice. Some will not be saved though . Their hearts will be so hardened that even upon witnessing these events they will refuse. Some have chosen to knowingly turn from God and live in service to evil (think the ruling elite, serial killers, Satanist or other religious followers of evil, etc).

This is how you reconcile the idea of unbaptized babies, people who died before Christ or never had the chance to hear the Gospel being saved. They will be resurrected and judged and they will more than likely choose to follow Christ and the Lord once the truth is presented. We as humans do not have the full picture and so we could never judge justly. This is the lord's place. The lord has set aside trials for us in our lives to shape us while allowing for freewill. He understands us better than ourselves and understands the conditions in our life.

The two resurrections allow Gods word to be infallible. Yes you must believe in Christ to be saved but some of us will have never had the option until the second resurrection at which time they too will have the choice that was laid out before the rest of us.

Now at times I do wonder about the "hell" text people have mentioned. I think really though eternal torment is not the act of our creator. People will be removed from the book of life. It will be as if you never existed. This is mercy. Mercy for the ones who are removed and mercy for the people who loved those very people. It would be hard to chill in some heavenly realm knowing your mother or (insert loved one) was in some place of fire and brimstone for eternity. This does not absolve us of our responsibility to be Christlike and follow the Lord's commandments as believers. As a matter of fact this is a bigger burden for those that believe and judgement will be stricter for those I feel but that is just speculation on my part.

This is why the mention of differing levels of rewards for believers. The law of God is written in our hearts. Someone who never knew Christ can still be a good person and follow the law's of God because they are common sense laws in how we treat others and show humbleness in acknowledging we are subservient to a creator God. Again this is just my take on things from how I have read the Bible, how I understand the nature of the Lord and his attributes, and through metaphysical experiences.

a reply to: Awen24

As in Adam all die. So (in the same way) all shall be made alive.... When the son has subjected all things (literally everything, everyone, every atom, molecule)to himself then he will subject himself to the father (along with the all things/people) then God will be all in all.

All in all not all in some. Case closed. Good day

When I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself.

Not some But all.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Awen24

As in Adam all die. So (in the same way) all shall be made alive.... When the son has subjected all things (literally everything, everyone, every atom, molecule)to himself then he will subject himself to the father (along with the all things/people) then God will be all in all.

That's half a quote.

"As in Adam, all die, so IN CHRIST all shall be made alive".

What you're talking about here, and what Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15, is the resurrection of the dead - NOT salvation. This is why the broader passage says:

"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,…"

The distinction is still made - this is why John 5:29 and Daniel 12:2 both note that some rise to eternal life, others to eternal damnation.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: FyreByrd

Yes, I've read those, but when firming up my spiritual beliefs, I tend to prefer the source material itself.

It's all morality tales. Every little bit helps.

a reply to: ketsuko

But the God of the bible is not perfect. He is wrathful and jealous. These are human traits. Being unforgiving towards beings who are imperfect by nature isn't Godly. If I as a human can imagine a better way of doing things, what does that say about God?
It's best not to believe in such mythology. But if you can't exist without it, just do whatever.

a reply to: Murgatroid

Laughable stuff, man. Freewill isn't saying, "You can do things my way or the highway."
Nice fake Jesus quotes.

originally posted by: IridiumFlareMadness
a reply to: ketsuko

But the God of the bible is not perfect. He is wrathful and jealous. These are human traits. Being unforgiving towards beings who are imperfect by nature isn't Godly. If I as a human can imagine a better way of doing things, what does that say about God?
It's best not to believe in such mythology. But if you can't exist without it, just do whatever.

You're assuming that wrath and jealousy are by nature evil.
That's simply not the case.

Let's assume, for example, that you had a daughter, whom you greatly loved. Let's assume that your daughter was raped at gunpoint, then shot, point blank, in the head.
Would your wrath be sinful?
No - it would be justified - righteous wrath. Likewise, you'd wish in court for a righteous judge who would share your anger over such a horrendous act. So it is with God.

This is why the Bible can say "in your anger, do not sin"... because anger is not intrinsically evil. The same can be said of jealousy. When you look at Scripture, God's jealousy is for what? Himself. He is jealous for His Name, and for His people.

Being jealous FOR isn't sinful.
Being jealous OF... is.

a reply to: Awen24

First off eternal is not eternal but age during. The word aionios means an eon or age. So the damnation (again a terrible choice of translation which should be correction) that is eternal is actually for a time. How long? Until the purifying fire which is the presence of God aka the lake of fire burns away all the chaff. All the dross. All the wood hay and stubble. All the dead flesh. Until the time of purification when all that's left is precious metals. That is the time of the reconciliation of all things. There is that word all again which is pan which literally means everything there is. This time of the reconciliation of all things which was spoken about by the holy prophets long ago according to Peter.
Then God will be all in all.

The all in all comes about to some in this life and some after the ressurection. But the end point is the same. I'm not sure we are disagreeing with each other unless you are arguing against universal salvation. If that's the case then I misread you and am disagreeing with you.

My point though was and I believe what Paul is saying in 1 cor 15 and also Romans 5 is that in the same way all are under death because of Adam. So also all are reborn into life under Christ. Some now. Some after death and resurrection. Everyone must pass through the fire. But the fire is not the fires of hell as taught by churchianity. It is the purifying fire of God as explained above.

All men (there's that durned pan again) will be salted with fire. Every mans works are subjected to the fire. They shall be saved yet through fire.

I come as a refiners fire a fullers soap.

originally posted by: Awen24

originally posted by: IridiumFlareMadness
a reply to: ketsuko

But the God of the bible is not perfect. He is wrathful and jealous. These are human traits. Being unforgiving towards beings who are imperfect by nature isn't Godly. If I as a human can imagine a better way of doing things, what does that say about God?
It's best not to believe in such mythology. But if you can't exist without it, just do whatever.

You're assuming that wrath and jealousy are by nature evil.
That's simply not the case.

Let's assume, for example, that you had a daughter, whom you greatly loved. Let's assume that your daughter was raped at gunpoint, then shot, point blank, in the head.
Would your wrath be sinful?
No - it would be justified - righteous wrath. Likewise, you'd wish in court for a righteous judge who would share your anger over such a horrendous act. So it is with God.

This is why the Bible can say "in your anger, do not sin"... because anger is not intrinsically evil. The same can be said of jealousy. When you look at Scripture, God's jealousy is for what? Himself. He is jealous for His Name, and for His people.

Being jealous FOR isn't sinful.
Being jealous OF... is.

Ah - Justification - Christian stand-by. Sin (if you call it that) is never justified regardless the provocation. The Buddha tells us that 'One moment of anger will wipe out an entire lifetime of virtue.' Think on that one.

The bible says it differently - "Love your enemy", "Turn the other cheek" and it doesn't say anything about exceptions - even the most horrific. Understandable yes - but still an error in practice and therefore a 'sin'.

Jesus even demonstrates the futulity of 'righteous anger' (and his humanity) when he 'goes off' on the money lenders? Does it do any good? Not for anyone. Does it change anything - no.

The ends do not justify the means. The means we use fortell the ends we receive.

originally posted by: IridiumFlareMadness
Laughable stuff, man.

FYI: Laugh now, God ALWAYS gets the last laugh...

NOW is the time to seek God, not when calamity overtakes you.

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me.

Proverbs 1:26-28

a reply to: Tardacus

Maybe it's the hate itself that keeps you out of heaven. Maybe all of the hatred you feel towards others, comes back to you.

Luke 6:37-38King James Version (KJV)

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Awen24

First off eternal is not eternal but age during. The word aionios means an eon or age. So the damnation (again a terrible choice of translation which should be correction) that is eternal is actually for a time. How long? Until the purifying fire which is the presence of God aka the lake of fire burns away all the chaff. All the dross. All the wood hay and stubble. All the dead flesh. Until the time of purification when all that's left is precious metals. That is the time of the reconciliation of all things.

This view is disproven by Jesus' story of the Sheep and the Goats.
Jesus says:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats."

..."Then He will answer [the goats], saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The problem you run into here is that the same word ('everlasting') is used both for punishment and eternal life. They are of the SAME duration, both using the greek 'aionion', as you've mentioned.

Now, either eternal life isn't eternal, and neither is the punishment, or both are indeed eternal.
This punishment, by the way, is called the 'second death', and is referred to in Revelation 20:14. Wouldn't be much of a 'second death' if there was nobody in hell to endure it - and this is *after* the final judgment.

a reply to: Awen24

Eternal means never ending yet multiple times in the New Testament aionios is used for an age...that ends. The kjv also translates it in a number of ridiculous ways that are completely contradictory.

The second death which hell or hades and death is thrown into is the death of death. Death of the dead flesh man. Death of all that is perishing. All throughout the bible fire is the presence of God. And the smoke of their torment (basanos which is a touchstone used to test the purity of silver) is in the presence of the lamb and saints. Aka the presence of God. The lake of fire is gods presence which refines all men. Until all that is seen in the pool of metal is pure silver. A pure reflection of God. All in all.