Little Sisters of the Poor Aiding in the Religious Right Wing's Agenda for a Theocratic Government

9a reply to: ketsuko
the gov't has decided that it's in the country's interest that birth control is included in insurance coverage...along with a bunch of other unpopular decisions that are included in the obamacare package. to be honest, I got a feeling that if we looked deep enough into this, we'd probably find that it was part of some UN treaty or WHO mandate but well, that's just the feeling I get.
so well the gov't's goal is for women to have coverage for birth control...something which I kind of agree with by the way.
the religous didn't like this idea so they protested and the gov't exempted them from this mandate...
but then, that leaves the gov't with the problem that some women will not be covered doesn't it? (of course, some of us aren't covered for anything but well, since when does any gov't program work 100%) the decided that for those employees for these companies and organizations they would find an alternative way to deliver them this coverage...
but well, they need some clue as to who they are!! thus the expectation from the gov't that the companies and organizations notify them.
I mean, it's not like the gov't has a staff of psychics employed to dive into their brains and find out, and I can imagine the uproar if they actually did!

originally posted by: ketsuko
A bunch of nuns who are supposed to be living a celibate life are now being required to buy insurance the covers contraception and, not just any contraception, but forms they feel are deeply offensive to their belief system.

That's completely not true! You should read the OP.

They should not be forced to buy contraception and they are not.

*sigh* I should have known this would be another thread fraught with misinformation and lies. The nuns don't have to provide contraception.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: windword

Must I repeat myself?

Government has no right to dictate to religion.

Religion has no right to determine which laws it will follow and which it won't.

Unless those laws are written indirect opposition to the tenets of the religion.

There are no laws against the "tenets" of any religion in the United States, well, certainly not Christianity.

There is nothing in the bible about birth control.

The only thing in the bible about abortion is that silly passage with the priest administering the abortificant.

In fact, on the contrary, God commands the the deaths of infants, children, women, etc.

I know that isn't most people's favorite part of the book, but it is true.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: dawnstar

Was there an issue before Obamacare?

No.

Yes, there was. Women who didn't have medical coverage didn't have reproductive health coverage...

originally posted by: Kali74
I think people are missing a key point from the OP, if I'm understanding it correctly. Little Sisters of the Poor is not being compelled to provide birth control NOR are they required to sign the waiver to be exempt because they already use a 'church plan' for their insurance and the company they use DOES NOT provide birth control coverage.

They are required to sign the form, which states that they have a religious objection. That's ALL the form says and they are refusing to sign it, even though signing it STILL won't let the employees get contraceptive coverage.

These facts are unimportant to some. But why let facts get in the way?

a reply to: dawnstar

OK, does anyone force someone to work for a religious employer?

NO.

So if you want to be covered for your birth control, don't work for that employer. Again I don't recall this being an issue before the government decided every woman MUST have it. Why do I need it for example, and why should everyone provide it, including people who don't agree with that?

And this still doesn't address the question - IS IT ALL RIGHT FOR SOMEONE TO HAVE TO SIGN A PAPER IN ORDER TO LIVE THEIR FAITH?

originally posted by: ketsuko
Again, why must they now sign a note stating their beliefs?

THEY want an exemption to the law. That's why. They don't have to state their beliefs. THEY want to exercise the perfectly reasonable option of opting out, but they won't sign a simple form.

Would you find it acceptable if gays had to sign notes in order for the government to allow them to practice their orientation in some way?

These nuns are asking for special treatment under the law. EVERYONE who wants this "special treatment" is required to sign it the form.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Kali74
I think people are missing a key point from the OP, if I'm understanding it correctly. Little Sisters of the Poor is not being compelled to provide birth control NOR are they required to sign the waiver to be exempt because they already use a 'church plan' for their insurance and the company they use DOES NOT provide birth control coverage.

They are required to sign the form, which states that they have a religious objection. That's ALL the form says and they are refusing to sign it, even though signing it STILL won't let the employees get contraceptive coverage.

These facts are unimportant to some. But why let facts get in the way?

And that makes it worse. You just admitted that the ONLY reason they are signing the form is to get government's permission to have their faith and live according to it.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Signing a form is tantamount to saying, "Yes, government, we admit we must ask your permission to practice and live our faith."

Is that clear enough for you?

Do you think they should have to ask the government for permission to have freedom of religion?

I'm getting the sense you think so.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Again I don't recall this being an issue before the government decided every woman MUST have it. Why do I need it for example, and why should everyone provide it, including people who don't agree with that?

You don't need birth control. Fine. Do you need cancer treatments? gall bladder removal? Maternity coverage? Because your insurance probably covers all that, too. Why should everyone provide those things? Because PEOPLE NEED THEM. Your insurance isn't likely tailor-made with coverage that suits YOU and ONLY you. They are packages.

And this still doesn't address the question - IS IT ALL RIGHT FOR SOMEONE TO HAVE TO SIGN A PAPER IN ORDER TO LIVE THEIR FAITH?

If they own and operate a business, and are imposing their faith's rules on everyone who works for them, it absolutely is OK to have to sign a form!

ONLY religion has this option! No other business person has the right to opt out of federal law. ONLY religion. They have special rights and it's just not enough!

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I stand corrected.

a reply to: ketsuko

Can you quote the part of the bible that says "Thou shalt not sign government forms?"

Come On!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Signing a form is tantamount to saying, "Yes, government, we admit we must ask your permission to practice and live our faith."

Is that clear enough for you?

Clear hyperbole! LOL! The victim stance is strong in this issue. I'm pretty sick of it.

Religion isn't what it used to be. Politics isn't what it used to be. What we're seeing is a dangerous combination of the two.

So, a bunch of nuns don't want to sign a form = a right wing agenda to establish a Christian theocracy.

Got to love election season.

Thank God (or whomever) that the left wing is there to save us from these backward religious fanatics. This country would go down the tubes in short order if people in the government felt that it was wrong to lie, or steal, or take bribes, or cheat on their spouses, or murder, or torture people, or go to war for profit.

Before you know it, the radical Christian theocracic government might decree that people had the right to choose whether or not they wanted to buy something. Or they might decide that spending money taking care of our poor, our homeless, and our veterans was more important than handing out foreign aid or spying on everyone in the world.

Good thing we have the left wing and moderate right wingers to prevent such radical nonsense.

a reply to: VictorVonDoom

Freedom is scary...

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Can you quote the part of the bible that says "Thou shalt not sign government forms?"

Come On!

It's not a Biblical thing. It's the part in the COTUS about freedom of religion. Why should they have to sign a form to have permission from the government to live their faith?

I'm not sure why anyone would think that Christians care about personal choice, or taking care of the poor, or the homeless, or veterans.

The only things I see here at ATS from most "Political Christians" is that everyone must either follow or bow down to their beliefs.

They don't believe in social safety nets.

They certainly don't have any problems with not telling the truth.

If those Christians were at the helm of a Theocratic Government ... why would we expect anything different?

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
Thank God (or whomever) that the left wing is there to save us from these backward religious fanatics.

The left is not saving us. In many cases, they are complicit! This isn't about left vs right. It's about secular vs theocratic. And if you don't think it's the religious right that is pushing these "religious freedom" laws and religious exemption challenges to health care law, you haven't been paying attention.

This country would go down the tubes in short order if people in the government felt that it was wrong to lie, or steal, or take bribes, or cheat on their spouses, or murder, or torture people, or go to war for profit.

No argument here. The government is completely corrupt and have no idea what they're supposed to be doing.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

In other words, you DO think the government is perfectly justified to get the nuns to sign a permission slip like a bunch of kids asking for their parents to sign their field trip slips.

What's next?

It basically opens the door to government control of religion. Freedom to worship, but not actual freedom of religion.

You sign the form and you acknowledge they have the right to control you and your religious activity because they are granting you a freedom which was always yours to begin with.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Can you quote the part of the bible that says "Thou shalt not sign government forms?"

Come On!

It's not a Biblical thing. It's the part in the COTUS about freedom of religion. Why should they have to sign a form to have permission from the government to live their faith?

But, they're not being required to sign anything in order to "live their faith" ... they're signing an exemption form so they can duck providing health insurance for their employees.

There's nothing in the bible against providing insurance, is there?

But, again, we bow to the whims of whatever someone wants to include in their "religion" ... doesn't matter if it's in the scriptures of the religion, or in any credo or confession of faith or ritual or practice or anything else.

Christians should be, what was it you said the other day? "Special little snowflakes."

Because someone chooses to use their healthcare to acquire birth control or abortion does not keep the good Sisters from any aspect of their faith ... aside from trying to control every single action and choice of others.