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Unfortunately rhetoric is ubiquitous in high education. Learning rhetoric might be the only result of many degrees.
The learning of rhetoric as a means to discern sophistry is a tool useful to a new young thinker. The new or young thinker has less experience and knowledge and therefore cannot disprove many cajoling and cozening assertions. But inserting rhetoric into the basic program gives it a primacy that encourages its use. Much of the schooling I received in essay writing emphasized rhetoric as the goal of good writing. Not clarity or logic or grammar, but rhetoric.
Better would be teaching the identification of truth. That would make rhetoric irrelevant.
Out of curiosity, LesMisanthrope, by what standard to you think an 'elite' should be judged by, if any?
And by what moral standard are these elites worse than the average person? Talking to my fellow plebians, it seems that they are often just as greedy as any theoretical wealthy person. Are the victorious wicked simply for being victorious where others have failed? or do you believe that the average person also has materialistic considerations because it is what they have been manipulated into thinking?
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Semicollegiate
Unfortunately rhetoric is ubiquitous in high education. Learning rhetoric might be the only result of many degrees.
The learning of rhetoric as a means to discern sophistry is a tool useful to a new young thinker. The new or young thinker has less experience and knowledge and therefore cannot disprove many cajoling and cozening assertions. But inserting rhetoric into the basic program gives it a primacy that encourages its use. Much of the schooling I received in essay writing emphasized rhetoric as the goal of good writing. Not clarity or logic or grammar, but rhetoric.
Better would be teaching the identification of truth. That would make rhetoric irrelevant.
Rhetoric is only one aspect of the three-part trivium. But a necessary step in dismantling the rhetoric we see every day. In classical education, the trivium comes before the more specialized quadrivium, and is taught in this order: grammar, logic, rhetoric. So even if rhetoric is ubiquitous in higher-education, it is not ubiquitous when it is needed most. Grammar, logic and rhetoric need to be taught right away, in that order, in early education, when students are at their most inquisitive and innocent, rather than later in life. This sort of schooling was reserved for the elite (those who could afford it) in ancient Greece and in Medieval times. Seems it still is today.
originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Semicollegiate
A good curriculum teaches both - logic and rhetoric. Trivium does this. Students in the second stage begin to learn logic in addition to their other studies, and students in the third stage add rhetoric so they can learn to put that logic to use in formulating and deconstructing arguments.
Discerning or verifying the truth seems to me the more important ability. Truth makes rhetoric irrelevant, except in politics.
My major complaint against rhetoric is that it begs the question that other people should execute your will. I prefer that other people do what is best for them and let me do the same.
Rhetoric is essentially criminal. It would have people follow your direction for no truthful reason.
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Semicollegiate
Discerning or verifying the truth seems to me the more important ability. Truth makes rhetoric irrelevant, except in politics.
My major complaint against rhetoric is that it begs the question that other people should execute your will. I prefer that other people do what is best for them and let me do the same.
Rhetoric is essentially criminal. It would have people follow your direction for no truthful reason.
How would you propose this?
Stay close to what you know. Gambling on an assumption can be a reasonable act, but remember that you are taking a chance.