Which do you prefer, to punish the guilty or to reduce the rate of immorality?

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic


Getting an abortion is a consequence of an action. If a woman gets pregnant, she most certainly has to face the consequence of her actions. It's her RESPONSIBILITY to decide what to do, so, she DOES take responsibility. Your anti-choice talking points make NO logical sense. There ARE consequences and it's her responsibility to face them.

So if I'm broke, it would be considered "responsible" by you, if I robbed a bank to solve my problem.

a reply to: beezzer

You are right. I did bring it up, but I also brought up other topics as well. Why didn't you mention them? Abortion was just one example I used to frame my argument that we should be working towards educating people NOT to do the things we don't want them to do so that they WANT to do them, not because they are FORCED to do them because we made it illegal to do it.

It's no surprise that people don't like being told what to do. Heck, it's practically a conservative mantra. Well, I'm trying to make it a reality. Do we REALLY need to punish the guilty? Is that truly an important thing that MUST be done for all grievances?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: beezzer

You are right. I did bring it up, but I also brought up other topics as well. Why didn't you mention them?

Because I didn't want to.

It's no surprise that people don't like being told what to do. Heck, it's practically a conservative mantra. Well, I'm trying to make it a reality. Do we REALLY need to punish the guilty? Is that truly an important thing that MUST be done for all grievances?

No, of course we don't need to punish the guilty. Just stop telling them to do bad things, stop telling them that there are consequences for their actions, stop telling them that they will be punished. Stop telling them not to harm others.

Just buy them flowers instead.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I think a few topics this thread could accommodate is prostitution, gambling, underage drinking and drugs.

originally posted by: beezzer
So if I'm broke, it would be considered "responsible" by you, if I robbed a bank to solve my problem.

You're going to have to come up with something better than that... Stealing from OTHER PEOPLE is not the same as having a medical procedure performed on MY body. Get real, beez.

a reply to: jjkenobi

In my life I lost two potential children and am here in my late forties childless. I was married to one of my partners and the other I pleaded gently with her that I would stick by her forever and a day. Wow, the suffering it caused me. I still get haunted by it. However I do not blame those partners and I concede it was their choice, their bodies and ultimately their decision.

Hard experience sent me on a huge learning curve. I'll just say that I am very cautious now and have to admit that I was wrong really to have engaged in sexual activity unprotected without being sure of my partners' mind set. Yet as we know it takes two to tango.

Personally, I find abortion abhorrent. There may well come a time, once humans have mastered the art of foresight and rational thinking, even in the throes of passion, when abortion is no longer necessary. I hope so.

I will never criticise a woman though for her choice. We know what that achieves psychologically and socially. Remember all those tales of women being forced to have the babies of men who raped them, back street abortion butchery and women committing suicide. I don't much fancy having to go back to that either.

This thread is certainly worthy in its pursuit of tackling the very behaviour that leads to us having to make such awful decisions.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: beezzer
So if I'm broke, it would be considered "responsible" by you, if I robbed a bank to solve my problem.

You're going to have to come up with something better than that... Stealing from OTHER PEOPLE is not the same as having a medical procedure performed on MY body. Get real, beez.

I don't care what you do to your body.

But what about the "other" body?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

About the OP, if anti-abortion people REALLY wanted to reduce abortion, seems they'd work toward that, but they don't. They hate contraception and the idea of making it easily available to all. What they REALLY hate is the idea of people having casual sex. Sex is really what they seem to want to control and punish. How many times have we heard, "If she doesn't want to have a baby, then she should keep her legs together", as if 1. she's the only one involved and 2. the only time they have sex is when they want a baby. Neither of which is true.

So, to answer the question in the OP, if we ALL worked together to make contraception freely available to anyone who wanted it, the abortion rate would PLUMMET! That's what I would prefer. Not "punishing" women who have sex, by legally forcing them to have a baby.

Proverbial nail on the head, BH.

I have said it so many times, in so many ways. Our sexuality is a large part of who we are as a species. Stop making it dirty and sinful. It isn't...
"Because the expression of my sexuality does not negate my integrity, intelligence or autonomy." Nicole Scott

If we want abortion rates to plummet, take away the stigma of human sexuality. Educate our children, realistically. And make contraception freely available, as well as newer, safer, and better forms of it.

In many cases, real education is the key to minimizing some of society's long standing issues. Maybe it's time we nationalize education.

originally posted by: beezzer
But what about the "other" body?

That IS my body.

I'm not going to get drawn into yet another irrational, emotional discussion with you about something that's none of your business (my body). It's off topic and disrespectful to the OP. If you want to start a thread, feel free.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: beezzer
But what about the "other" body?

That IS my body.

I'm not going to get drawn into yet another irrational, emotional discussion with you about something that's none of your business (my body).

I can't discuss abortion because I'm not a woman?

Look, you and the OP may not like my answers.

Tough.

originally posted by: Klassified
Maybe it's time we nationalize education.

You'd love that up until a conservative Christian is in the White House.

Then all hell would break loose.

lolz

a reply to: beezzer

Whoa now! There are ALWAYS consequences for your actions, regardless if the state has anything to say on the matter or not, and we can certainly teach THOSE consequences as a deterrent. For instance, constant theft results in you being distrusted by anyone who knows you.

And again, I really only want this to be the case for things that we can show actually REDUCE the rates of occurrence by making them legal. For bigger things, it will take quite a bit of smaller steps to get to where we can talk about legalizing them, plus we will have to address other systemic issues plaguing our system as well. It's not like I want to say, "Hey tomorrow, everything is fair game! Anarchy rules all!" I'm trying to say that we have to work up to it, by putting proper systems in place so that people WANT to behave instead of feeling like they HAVE to behave.

Teaching kids morality is different these days. Parents seem to resort to taking things away or giving timeouts, like confiscating their I pad or sending them to their room.

Instead of actually imparting any lesson they are just teaching them there is no such thing as property rights and preparing them for doing time in jail (the big timeout).

Another might be knocking before entering ones room…


Look at the result, kids grow up and become thieves that steal everything and police arresting everyone at the drop of a hat, putting them in cells and confiscating (impounding) their private property.

What did we expect?

originally posted by: angryhulk
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I think a few topics this thread could accommodate is prostitution, gambling, underage drinking and drugs.

Most certainly. There are always examples that I missed.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Bone75

Interesting. So anything to add to the thread or did you just come in to explain how you were really just insulting me?

I'm purposely vague sometimes because I try to get people to approach a topic or thought from an angle they may not have considered when forming their opinion.

In framing my response (the one that inspired this thread) the way I did, I was trying to emphasize in your mind the importance of the accuracy of those numbers (the ones that say abortion is more common in countries where it is illegal).

My apologies for leading you astray. My intention was to have you take a closer look at the numbers and how they are derived, not to inspire a thread about legalizing everything.

I'd prefer people not use obvious false dichotomies and then build a flimsy case from biased talking points.

I guess that's too much to ask of the OP.

a reply to: Bone75

Well then you drastically underestimated how my head works. If I were you, I wouldn't apologize for giving me the idea, that is unless you find this topic abhorrent. Then I don't know what to tell you.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: beezzer

Whoa now! There are ALWAYS consequences for your actions, regardless if the state has anything to say on the matter or not, and we can certainly teach THOSE consequences as a deterrent. For instance, constant theft results in you being distrusted by anyone who knows you.

And again, I really only want this to be the case for things that we can show actually REDUCE the rates of occurrence by making them legal. For bigger things, it will take quite a bit of smaller steps to get to where we can talk about legalizing them, plus we will have to address other systemic issues plaguing our system as well. It's not like I want to say, "Hey tomorrow, everything is fair game! Anarchy rules all!" I'm trying to say that we have to work up to it, by putting proper systems in place so that people WANT to behave instead of feeling like they HAVE to behave.

Crime rates will always be reduced if we make crime legal.

I don't understand your logic there.

"so that people WANT to behave instead of feeling like they HAVE to behave"

What makes people want to behave? The consequences of not behaving.

You mean "obligating".

As in, "so that people WANT to behave instead of feeling like they feel obligated to behave".

A moral compass usually dictates whether people will behave or not. The lack of a moral base, the lack of a moral outlook, usually indicates that the individual feels no obligation to society to behave.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Klassified
Maybe it's time we nationalize education.

You'd love that up until a conservative Christian is in the White House.

Then all hell would break loose.

lolz

I admit it. You're right Beez. But only because I know what conservative(read fundamentalist) Christianity is about, and what they're after. Theocratic thinking is not conducive to a free and open society. Surely history has taught us as much.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Are you more concerned with punishing the guilty or do you want to reduce the rate of immorality?

One man's morality is another man's immorality. I think it is the mothers of the Manchu people who fellate their toddler sons, and is considered completely moral by them. Westerners, of course, are disgusted by it. If we really want to reduce the rate of immorality, people must become desensitized to the immoral act in question, that is if disgust is indeed the guiding evolutionary or biological factor in morality. In other words, more abortions for everyone.