Ten Questions for Biblical Literalists and Fundamentalists

Hello, fellow believers in something beyond five senses. These questions are for a specific kind of Christian. The literalists and fundamentalists. These are not questions to attack your faith as I know plenty of non-fundamentalist Christians who can answer these comfortably with their faith intact. These questions are to challenge a specific type of believer and to perhaps get them to see, from a different angle, some of their own beliefs and view them in a new way.

If you are a live-and-let-live Christian (or any non-Christian, for that matter) and feel like you have some time to kill, your answers would be appreciated, too. But, again, these questions aren't geared for you.

Also, I did not come up with these but I do not want to post the source yet as it includes commentary about the logic behind these specific questions. Later in the thread, I'll post the original source.

Here they are. If you are going to answer them, answer them. Please have some integrity and don't dance around it with non-answers.

1. Can you make a moral judgment against rape or slavery using only scripture?
2. Would you sacrifice your child if god asked you to?
3. Is it acceptable to cherry pick the bible and only follow the parts you agree with?
4. How did animal X get from point Y to point Z after the great flood?
5. How did carnivorous dinosaurs supposedly eat plants before the biblical fall of man, when their teeth and digestive systems were not equipped to process a vegetarian diet?
6. Can god tell a lie?
7. Is observable physical evidence more important and valid than what the bible claims to be true?
8. Is there any amount of evidence that would change your views?
9. What physical proof is there that your particular god even exists?
10. Do you believe hell is a justifiable punishment for a simple lack of belief?

Thanks for your time, folks. And, like I said, Christians who believe their god is bigger than the bible can still answer but I imagine that you won't be challenged like the others will.

a reply to: Cuervo

Bait thread.

You just mentioned today that you believe that Christians are following a "Dark Path" (Kind of like evil Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars saying the Jedi were the bad guys.. LOL).

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Cuervo

You just mentioned today that you believe that Christians are following a "Dark Path" (Kind of like evil Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars saying the Jedi were the bad guys.. LOL).

www.abovetopsecret.com...

No, I didn't say that Christians were on a dark path. I said that I thought you were.

a reply to: Cuervo

Interesting,

Based on what?

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Cuervo

Interesting,

Based on what?

It was an obvious response to your post on that thread. You claimed that people like me consorted with evil beings who worked in evil ways. To me, following a path that doesn't allow you to explore your spirituality and to condemn beliefs that are different than your own is a "dark path".

I don't need to add my opinion about your gods in order to make that assessment. It was simply a response to you essentially telling me the same thing.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Cuervo

(Kind of like evil Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars saying the Jedi were the bad guys.. LOL).

It's a bit off-topic but you know what I "lol" over with that comparison? I've always viewed the Empire as the Christian church and the Rebels as the pagans when I was growing up.


ps edit - Yoda was so obviously a witch and the emperor totally matched the Pope-type persona.

a reply to: Cuervo

Ok I'll try and answer seeing as the fundies are giving this a wide berth...

1. The Golden Rule.
2. Yes.
3. No.
4. Pangaea.
5. We have no dinosaur digestive system to suggest that. That's guess work.
Teeth, most carnivorous Animals will still eat vegetation.
6. Of course.
7. According to the Bible, those stories were observed & physical.
8. Only God could tell me there is no God...
Otherwise it comes from a hypothetical standpoint of a mere mortal.
9. From Aurora Borealis, To Everest, To Andromeda, To VY Canis Majoris the wonders to see are abound.
10. Let's put it this way, if someone believes in nothing, why would they care/worry if I think that deserves a hellish end?

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Cuervo

Ok I'll try and answer seeing as the fundies are giving this a wide berth...

1. The Golden Rule.
2. Yes.
3. No.
4. Pangaea.
5. We have no dinosaur digestive system to suggest that. That's guess work.
Teeth, most carnivorous Animals will still eat vegetation.
6. Of course.
7. According to the Bible, those stories were observed & physical.
8. Only God could tell me there is no God...
Otherwise it comes from a hypothetical standpoint of a mere mortal.
9. From Aurora Borealis, To Everest, To Andromeda, To VY Canis Majoris the wonders to see are abound.
10. Let's put it this way, if someone believes in nothing, why would they care/worry if I think that deserves a hellish end?

And a star for answering them, thank you! The answer to number one is actually the best I've heard.

a reply to: Cuervo

Thanks buddy, couple stars for you too.

I thought those well thought out questions deserved some sort of response that wasn't off topic.

Also I'm not a Christian Fundamentalist...
Obviously

That was my best impression of one who would use logic rather than emotion to such questions

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Cuervo

Thanks buddy, couple stars for you too.

I thought those well thought out questions deserved some sort of response that wasn't off topic.

Also I'm not a Christian Fundamentalist...
Obviously

That was my best impression of one who would use logic rather than emotion to such questions

It's interesting because there are no scriptures saying that slavery or rape are wrong; just how to do it right. The Golden Rule is kind of a catch-all for those sorts of omissions. On the other hand, the Golden Rule can also be used to contradict many of the judgement that are commanded.

1. Can you make a moral judgment against rape or slavery using only scripture?

Of course.

Regarding rape:
The Bible's stance is clarified best by Deuteronomy 22:25-27. In this passage, the guilty man is to be taken outside the city and stoned, while the woman is declared innocent.

Detractors often point to Numbers 31 (in which the men of Israel were commanded to take women from their captives), but nowhere in this passage is rape even mentioned, let alone condoned. Rather, they were commanded to purify themselves and the women they had taken to wife (31:19), which is a direct contrast.

Regarding slavery:
A point of clarification needs to be made here. 'Slavery' in ancient Israel is not referring to what we consider to be slavery. We're not talking about chains, we're not talking about people being held against their will. Slavery in ancient Israel was a VOLUNTARY position. People would sell *themselves* into servitude when they were unable to pay their debts, for example. Some Bibles translate this word 'slavery', others 'bondservants', which is probably a more accurate term. A bondservant chooses, of his own will, to work for another for a set period of time (and the Bible set limits on this) in order to repay a debt. This is the 'slavery' Scripture refers to. The practice of *owning* another human being is an entirely different issue, and is clearly not something that the Bible condones.


2. Would you sacrifice your child if god asked you to?

This is, once again, based on a complete lack of understanding.
There is only one instance in Scripture where this occurs - and it is Abraham offering his son, Isaac, upon God's request. What people miss in this passage, however, is that God Himself provides a sacrifice in place of Isaac. God did this to show the kind of substitute that He Himself would provide. Jesus Christ would be that Lamb - the "Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world".

With that in context, the question becomes something of a moot point. Christ has already been given, nothing remains to foreshadow.


3. Is it acceptable to cherry pick the bible and only follow the parts you agree with?

Of course not. There is, however, a caveat to this. The books of the Law, in the Old Testament, are regarding the legal, civil and moral management of the State of Israel. These are not applicable to the Gentile world, because we're not Jews. There is still plenty that we can learn from this, of course, but the whole point of those laws was to demonstrate that mankind could never live up to God's standards - not to 'make men holy'.


4. How did animal X get from point Y to point Z after the great flood?

They walked.
Don't make the assumption that the world was the same before & after the flood as it is now. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that this was a time of dramatic upheaval, which literally changed the face of the earth. Mountains rose and fell, the 'great fountains of the deep' opened up, and the climate changed drastically.


5. How did carnivorous dinosaurs supposedly eat plants before the biblical fall of man, when their teeth and digestive systems were not equipped to process a vegetarian diet?

This has a series of false assumptions. To give an example, there have been lions in recent times that refuse to eat meat or drink milk with blood in it, and have lived off vegetarian diets. That's certainly unusual now, but there's no reason why that wouldn't have been possible before the flood - particularly given that all the evidence suggests that the plant and animal kingdoms were both vastly different at that time. An animal that large could never live off the plants that exist now - they'd deforest the planet so rapidly that all life would die. The climate was so different prior to the flood, however, that plant life grew far more rapidly, and much larger... and would have been sufficient to sustain life; bearing in mind that such animals no doubt could have eaten fruit etc. too, which would most likely have been far more nutritious prior to the fall (wherein God cursed the earth). Now, the other issue here is the implicit assumption that life existed for a long period of time before Adam and Eve sinned against God. That's not necessarily the case, and such animals may have found themselves eating flesh far more rapidly than the question suggests - with adaptation following rapidly after the fall.


6. Can god tell a lie?

No, He can't. Lying would be a violation of His own character - and since we know that God is holy, and that "He is Light; in Him there is no darkness at all", we know that He can not, and does not lie.


7. Is observable physical evidence more important and valid than what the bible claims to be true?

This question is based on the false assumption that the only reliable evidence is observable physical evidence. Courts of law do not operate on this premise - they accept the testimony of eyewitnesses, for example. This is the form of evidence that the Bible largely presents. With that in mind, if God is the creator of all things, then the observable universe should be consistent with His Word - and I'd suggest that this is certainly the case.


8. Is there any amount of evidence that would change your views?
I change my views all the time... but of course, that's not what this question is asking. What it's asking is "are you one of those people who stupidly believes without any evidence? A "blind faith" type of person?
The question itself is pretty ridiculous. I consider myself to be relatively intelligent, and I certainly don't believe things without justification. I'm also not one of those Christians who doesn't know the Bible. I'd say I know it far better than most. ...and with that in mind I can honestly say that, knowing what the Bible teaches, I've found it to be consistent with everything that I see around me - and, more than that, that it is utterly without equal: textually, ideologically, and certainly in terms of prophecy. This is the God who "makes the end known from the beginning".


9. What physical proof is there that your particular god even exists?

You could start with creation and work from there, if that helps you.
The greatest evidence for me, however, is the Bible itself. Nothing in all of literature compares - and the fact that it has predicted, with absolute accuracy, numerous events throughout the history of mankind, is indisputable. The book of Daniel alone gives skeptics fits - given that he predicted the rise and fall of four major empires in advance, in excruciating detail.


10. Do you believe hell is a justifiable punishment for a simple lack of belief?

Nobody is sent to hell because they don't believe.
People are sent to hell because they are evil. "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."
Did you catch that? The standard that we have to reach is "the glory of God". So, if you don't want to go to hell, just reach that standard. Easy!
Can't do it? Yeah, me neither. That's why God provided Jesus Christ... to do what we never could... to bear the sin of the world, and to pay the debt for those who could never meet God's standard themselves.

Star for such a thoughtful and robust answer. While I have further questions in response to most of your answers, I told myself I would not pick apart any post in its entirety in this thread and try to just stick with one question so I just wanted to clarify this one:

originally posted by: Awen24
6. Can god tell a lie?

No, He can't. Lying would be a violation of His own character - and since we know that God is holy, and that "He is Light; in Him there is no darkness at all", we know that He can not, and does not lie.

This is petty and low-hanging logic-fruit of me, I know, but would this mean he's not omnipotent? I fully understand that this almost sounds like the "can god create a stone so heavy..." riddle but there's a subtle difference.

Do you believe he's omnipotent (in the strict definition of the word)?

a reply to: Cuervo

What is a lie? Is it an illusion, a hidden truth or a misrepresentation of facts? Nature is responsible for all of those things. Nature mimics, pretending to be something it's not all the time. Nature gives us the impression that the sun goes down and away from us, leaving us in darkness until it's return, but in reality, it is us that turns away from the sun.

When look at a colorful object and identify its color, we're actually being deceived, because the color that we see and identify an object with, is the color that object is actually reflecting. The color it holds is the opposite color of that it reflects.

So, I would say that judging God's nature by examining his creation, I would say that (the Biblical) creator God is a trickster and certainly is capable of lying.

Well, I did say that anybody is welcome to answer so, what the heck, I'll throw in my two cents.

originally posted by: Cuervo
1. Can you make a moral judgment against rape or slavery using only scripture?

The only scripture I can find that gives punishment for rape is one that addresses raping a woman who belongs to another man or raping another man. I feel the punishment for these crimes are being assigned because a man is faulted in both. The one with women being raped does not have a punishment.

I cannot find any scripture saying that slavery is wrong.

I'm actually going to refer to CharlieSpeirs's "golden rule" as a general answer here since I would not like to be raped nor enslaved so... I guess that means I shouldn't do it.

originally posted by: Cuervo
2. Would you sacrifice your child if god asked you to?

Nope. If a god asked me to do so, I have obviously made a mistake in choosing a deity.

originally posted by: Cuervo
3. Is it acceptable to cherry pick the bible and only follow the parts you agree with?

Nope. If I'm going to judge somebody for homosexuality, I better be wearing tassels on all four corners of my clothes and build parapets on my house so I don't go to hell with the gay folks.

originally posted by: Cuervo
4. How did animal X get from point Y to point Z after the great flood?

Maybe the flood was more regional than global?

originally posted by: Cuervo
5. How did carnivorous dinosaurs supposedly eat plants before the biblical fall of man, when their teeth and digestive systems were not equipped to process a vegetarian diet?

I've never understood why that part in Genesis is interpreted as animals being vegetarians to begin with. Genesis just says "O hai guys, here's some plants to eat". I don't see the part where he says they ONLY ate that or even that all of them did.

originally posted by: Cuervo
6. Can god tell a lie?

Of course he can.

originally posted by: Cuervo
7. Is observable physical evidence more important and valid than what the bible claims to be true?

Even if I were a Christian, I would say "yes". You must have faith in the context of known reality. To deny reality in order to spare your faith is the same as abandoning your faith right then and there.

originally posted by: Cuervo
8. Is there any amount of evidence that would change your views?

My views don't really make any claims that go against what is scientifically known. But, if they did, I'd be open minded about hearing new evidence.

originally posted by: Cuervo
9. What physical proof is there that your particular god even exists?

None. Which is why personal gnosis comes into play. For Christians, they have faith. It's a valid reason to believe. But what it means is that the bible is not necessary for belief. If it were, then that would mean a person had no faith.

originally posted by: Cuervo
10. Do you believe hell is a justifiable punishment for a simple lack of belief?

Oh, hell no.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Cuervo

What is a lie? Is it an illusion, a hidden truth or a misrepresentation of facts? Nature is responsible for all of those things. Nature mimics, pretending to be something it's not all the time. Nature gives us the impression that the sun goes down and away from us, leaving us in darkness until it's return, but in reality, it is us that turns away from the sun.

When look at a colorful object and identify its color, we're actually being deceived, because the color that we see and identify an object with, is the color that object is actually reflecting. The color it holds is the opposite color of that it reflects.

So, I would say that judging God's nature by examining his creation, I would say that (the Biblical) creator God is a trickster and certainly is capable of lying.

That's how many pagan gods and goddesses are viewed. Many are dynamic and capable of versatility which is why so many tales in mythology play out like a Shakespeare yarn. The Christian bible sort of does this but with prophets and heroes instead of other gods. The main god in Christian mythology is supposed to be wholly good and without evil yet we can all point to exceptions pretty quickly in their bible.

I think the Christian gods are more dynamic than they like to admit.

1. Can you make a moral judgment against rape or slavery using only scripture?
Not sure why I would need scripture to do so, the are both morally wrong.

2. Would you sacrifice your child if god asked you to?
No. And anyone that would is praying to the wrong god.

3. Is it acceptable to cherry pick the bible and only follow the parts you agree with?
No. Either you believe it all or none of it. Personally, I find it hard to swallow a book that has been translated from a language that is impossible to actually interpret.

4. How did animal X get from point Y to point Z after the great flood?
They found dry land to stay safe and when the water subsided they were where they were.

5. How did carnivorous dinosaurs supposedly eat plants before the biblical fall of man, when their teeth and digestive systems were not equipped to process a vegetarian diet?
Huh? What does this have to do with the cost of tea in China? Who cares what the dinosaurs ate? I like meat and I am currently incarnated in a human condition that is carnivorous and anyone that wants to live off of vegetables go ahead, that just leaves more meat for me.

6. Can god tell a lie?
Supposedly we are created in gods' image if you believe that, if we are capable of telling a lie it stands to reason god could too. Do you really believe this world was created in 7 days? I rest my case.

7. Is observable physical evidence more important and valid than what the bible claims to be true?
Depends what physical evidence you are referring to. Many people claim to see things that get debunked often. The burning bush? Noahs ark, the parting of the red sea? All of these were observable and I do not believe any of them happened the way they have been factualized to happen.

8. Is there any amount of evidence that would change your views?
Nope. I pretty much think all religion is a crock.

9. What physical proof is there that your particular god even exists?
Well my higher power does not require proof to exist. It just does by virtue of my own verifiable experiences. There is one very important piece of evidence that is physical in nature, Me. Of course, I am not alone so I suppose you could include the entirety of the universe and the 9 dimensions and the other parallel universes and all that entails. Whatever anyone wants to call the source is up to them.

10. Do you believe hell is a justifiable punishment for a simple lack of belief?
You would have to believe hell is an actual place first of all and second, if there is such a place it will be visited by those for actions not lack of a belief.

Most of what you said I can resonate with. I just wanted to clear up this one question, though, so it might make more sense to you:

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
5. How did carnivorous dinosaurs supposedly eat plants before the biblical fall of man, when their teeth and digestive systems were not equipped to process a vegetarian diet?
Huh? What does this have to do with the cost of tea in China? Who cares what the dinosaurs ate? I like meat and I am currently incarnated in a human condition that is carnivorous and anyone that wants to live off of vegetables go ahead, that just leaves more meat for me.

The reason that question is asked is because some fundamentalist Christians insist that all animals started out as vegetarians. Since there is evidence that many dinosaurs couldn't survive without meat, it makes that interpretation suspect. It's a bizarre way of interpreting that part in Genesis in my opinion but a lot of people do.

I just wanted you to know the story behind it because, if you don't, it does sound like a nutty question.

a reply to: Cuervo


Does this mean that all christian fundemental#s are vegetarians?

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Cuervo


Does this mean that all christian fundemental#s are vegetarians?

No but that would be pretty cool. The vegetarian thing was temporary and then we all started eating each other.

originally posted by: soulpowertothendegree
a reply to: Cuervo


Does this mean that all christian fundemental#s are vegetarians?

No. God gave man permission to eat meat after the flood (Genesis 9:3).
I'd suggest that this was primarily because the earth had changed so drastically after the flood (in terms of climate etc.) that living a purely vegetarian lifestyle would have been extremely difficult in nutrition terms.