The lost dutchman mines

I live in Phoenix and know they type of kook who spends weekends "looking for the lost mine". "Looking for the lost mine" is local code for bi-curious guy looking for a "gentle" man. The fact that you are looking for military types and promise lots of gun play brings two questions to mind.

1. Will you shave?
2. Are photos permitted.

Thanks in advance. And good luck!

I meant "gun play".

sounds like a reality tv show...

Firedoc, at the risk of coming off a little harsh, why should I -- or anyone else -- spend a couple weeks herding an Iowa boy who doesn't know the desert around through Weaver's Needle and the surrounding area?

I mean, I've been poking around the Supers for more than 25 years, most of the time unarmed, and -- whaddayuh know -- I'm still alive. I would not go into the desert (or any place else, except mayber a hunting trip) with a bunch of people I don't know, all of whom are armed. How do I know how safe they are?

One of the things that you have to remember about all the folks who give you inside information on where the Lost Dutchman is -- they're all wrong. If anyone knew where it was, they'd have gone there by now! Fact of the matter is that no one knows where Jacob Walz's mine was or even if it ever existed.

If you want to come out here for a vacation and are looking for some day hikes or horseback rides, that's no problem. There are also a lot of good rock-climbing areas around, although the Superstitions are not the best place to go rapelling because the remoteness from civilization can be a problem if someone gets hurt.

A lot of the Superstitions are Wilderness Area, which means you can't camp there, and I can't think of any wranglers who would rent you horses for more than a day trip. At the very minimum, you need to think of the logistics of this a bit more.

Groingrinder, where are you located? I live north of the Superstition Freeway between Crismon and Signal Butte, and my wife and I are both volunteer tour guides at Boyce Thompson Arboretum State Park near Superior. We need to get together one of these days; I'll buy the beer.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Off_The_Street]

As a matter of fact I was raised in Idaho in the hells canyon area on the Idaho, Oregon border where I have spent endless days riding my fathers fence lines as well as various other wilderness areas by myself. I am also bringing my own horses and a mule to pack into the superstitions I have also had very vast experience in the owyhee mountains of Idaho which is probably just as hostile. I dont need an arizonan to guide me anywhere I can do just fine on my own. Now thats out of the way I am looking for some people who would enjoy packing into the superstition mountains. If you want to go let me know if not suit yourself ill post pictures when i get back.

Hey all, lost dutchman's fun, but Firedoc, I gotta say, even with your background and skills you'd be better off just going hiking in the superstitions for fun than looking for the mine.

I grew up in phoenix...heck, I was just back to visit my family for the holidays, if you'd asked a week or two earlier I might've been up for an ATS superstitions hike and meetup (I can think of probably two dozen ATS regulars in and around AZ). If you're throwing together a quasi-military expedition I'm probably out of the picture, though: I'm in good shape (ex triathlete) and strong and have studied enough martial arts to know a thing or two about fighting, but not enough to want to rely on those skills for anything; in a group of marines I'd pretty much be a packmule / cannon fodder. I can offer brains and a strong back, for what they're worth...

When I was a kid one my friend's dad was one of those guys spending most of his weekends in the superstition mountains looking for the lost dutchman...like a lot of those guys he kept thinking he'd found tantalizing clues (old campfires, marks on the rocks, etc.) that kept it interesting for him, but, needless to say, he never found the mine. one thought, though: the topo maps for the area have been around forever, and if there's any obvious mine-looking thing on them no one's found it yet, but what's new (ie, within the past 5 years) is how easy it is to get quality satellite photographs. I don't have time or motivation to do this myself at the moment, but I'd be curious to accumulate some really high-res satellite maps of that whole region -- hopefully the 1-meter or less resolution -- and go to kinko's and make a big map (like wall-sized) and go through it with the proverbial fine-tooth comb looking for stuff that looks like mines, or where there might be caves. after you mark those off, you could plan a route to take, so you're not just wandering in the desert.

--- on guns and rattlesnakes / other wildlife:

I've gotta say that you're bringing way too much firepower if you're really only worried about rattlesnakes (though if you're worried about banditos I'd want something with full auto, as much to scare them away as to actually overpower anyone...the odds of running into drug traffickers or whatever that far north are pretty remote (like 100,000:1) but whenever those guys make it into the news they're always well-armed...google 'organ pipe monument ranger shooting' for an example of what can go wrong further south).

For rattlesnakes, etc., basically if they're far enough away that you have time to draw and shoot your gun then they're also far enough away that you can just getaway without shooting, and if they're close enough that you're in danger I hate to break it to you but you're probably too slow: if you're Bruce Lee quick you might draw first and cap the snake, but odds are good the snake'll get your leg first. If you want to walk shotgun or rifle in hand the whole way through the desert you might have better odds, but the high desert's rough enough you don't really want to make yourself any more tired than you're gonna get. Also, park rangers / law enforcement will probably flip out if they happen to bump into you while you're walking around gun drawn, etc...really, long pants, long sleeves, and thick boots are probably as good of protection from rattlesnakes as a gun will turn out to be unless you get really 'lucky'.

You might have to worry about mountain lions if you're wandering around way off the beaten path. I don't know much about them, but I think a shotgun's plenty, and my impression is they'll pretty much leave you alone unless they're starving.

So, pretty much what Off_the_Street said: you're probably not gonna need a gun to stay alive in the superstitions unless you're expecting trouble from other people. Also, apparently there are restrictions to the guns you can bring in legally...

---

HowardRoark: Is that really the actual lost dutchman? It wouldn't surprise me if it was, but given that it's also an apparent tourist trap it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't, either...whether it is or it isn't though, I do think it's funny that that tourist attraction exists...wish I'd thought of it, maybe I could've retired by now from sellin' fools' gold, stuffed jackalopes, tshirts, and treasure maps. I'm not up on all this, so if anyone knows, does anyone know for certain the Peralta vein's the same one the Lost Dutchman is supposed to have tapped into?

Groingrinder: As always, on the internet if you're interested in something there's already a webforum with people way more knowledgeable and interested than you; if you wouldn't mind I'd like to get hooked up with some worthwhile Arizona-related treasure hunting information (u2u or thread, doesn't matter). Offhand, do you know if anyone's done what I suggested upthread with the big satellite-photo map?

---

Arizona-related stuff: if you're looking for adventure, checking out the ghost towns might be fun (dunno how safe that'd be, though). Apparently there's a fair number of ghost towns still standing out in the Arizona backcountry; there's at least one guidebook out there with pictures.

More interestingly, I've heard from a reliable source rumors that somewhere in northwestern AZ there's a ghost town or other nonincorporated settlement (in the woods, not the desert) that's been taken over by a bunch of "neo-celts" who live using mostly medieval technology and make money by travelling to renaissance fairs and meetings of the Society for Creative Anachronism and selling hand-forged swords, suits of armor, etc...it sounded like total BS , but Arizona's a weird enough place that it wouldn't surprise me if there was actually something like that, even if by the time I heard about it the stories had been greatly exaggerated. Has anyone else here heard anything about that?

There is a Windows program that you can use to download the 1 meter maps from Terraserver. It is USA Photo Maps. It is free and can be found at www.jdmcox.com.

It does a whole lot more, but I don't have the space to go into details. Go to the site, download and install the software and READ the .TXT file.

Then go to File> New Map Location>, enter a name and fill in the numbers (only) N 33.409391° and W 111.322384° into the degree fileds. Leave the minutes and seconds fields blank. That should get you somewhere in the Superstitions. The screen will be blank at this point. If you want to download the topo maps type in a "T" or if you want to download the photos type a "P". Then type in a "F" to "fill" in (download) the data.

Good Luck.

So you want to find the Lost Dutchman gold mine? Are you sure you want to? Legend has it that even if you find it, you will never be able to enjoy the spoils. Having lived in Arizona many years ago, and having hiked all through the Superstitions (not looking for anything but a good hiking trail), I was told of many people who found the mine. None made it back to civilization.

Ben there done that ,when I lived in Tempe we would go up there all of the time. I would really like to go if I could get away when are you doing it ? Afterall you arent really looking for treasure of the conventional sort are you. It will be a waste of time if you do not have good info.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street


A lot of the Superstitions are Wilderness Area, which means you can't camp there, and I can't think of any wranglers who would rent you horses for more than a day trip. At the very minimum, you need to think of the logistics of this a bit more.

Groingrinder, where are you located? I live north of the Superstition Freeway between Crismon and Signal Butte, and my wife and I are both volunteer tour guides at Boyce Thompson Arboretum State Park near Superior. We need to get together one of these days; I'll buy the beer.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Please do not rain too hard on the parade!!!! Camping and Horseback riding are permitted and encouraged in the Superstition Mountain Wilderness Area. Rifles, motorized devices, and mining are ILLEGAL. I agree that the "armed to the teeth mercenary" approach is a bit much. I also agree about going into the wilderness with men that you do not know. I doubt they will invite spud602 along, unless he promises not to make sexual advances to anyone. I would love to see firedoc2368 come here with one or two TRUSTED AND LONG TERM friends and do a preliminary recon before trying to mount a full fledged expedition. It is my personal belief based on reading and talking to the old timers in Apache Junction that the mine has been found about a half a dozen times and worked secretly each time. THE LOST DUTCHMAN IS NOT THE ONLY GOLD IN THE SUPERSTITIONS. It is funny you should mention the Arboretum because Picketpost mountain is my OTHER PLAYGROUND. I used to do alot of prospecting and dry washing in Alamo Wash when I was a member of the Superstition Mountain Treasure Hunters. There is even a contingent of treasure hunters who believe the Lost Dutchman Mine is in the Picketpost Mountain neighborhood and not in the Superstition Wilderness. The National Guard gunnery range at Gonzales Pass is another good place to recreate. If the flag is up, they are having maneuvers and you cannot go in, but otherwise you are free to 4 wheel, camp and have fun. My father and I used to pickup trash on the Superstition freeway from Ellsworth Road in Mesa on out to Superior. You may have seen me. You know, we are practically neighbors, I live north of the freeway between Signal Butte and Meridian. Small world isn't it. I would love to go hiking sometime and share a drink, but I do not like sitting around in bars.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Let me guess, you have a map, right?

More people have been killed looking for the lost Duchman mine than in any other treasure hunt.

To bad the Duchman was found many years ago.
As you drive out of Apache Junction, there is a tourist trap in a played out gold mine. I hate to inform you, but That is all that is left of the old duchman mine (well not exactly, but it is the same vein, the Peralta load, which has been worked out.)

You would have better luck searching for one of the burro packs from the Peralta massacre.

You are, of course, talking about the "BULLDOG" mine. It is currently owned by the same guy who owns the "BLUEBIRD MINE GIFT SHOP" that is on Apache Trail as you head out of town past Goldfield Ghost Town. This fits some, but not all clues given to the mine. Apache Trail winds past all the historic mines, but the Black Queen and Mammoth come to mind as two where there was evidence of ancient mining in the form of tunnels timbered with IRONWOOD. The problem with assigning this tunneling to ancient Spanish mining is that is not the way they did things. They were fond of a style of "open pit mining" where your excavation was like an inverted cone going down into the ground . There would be a pole in the center with a chain, and numerous ladders made out of a single board with toe holds cut into it. The peon miners would bring the ore out in baskets supported by straps across their heads while climbing these skinny ladders up out of the pit.

I sure would like to be a remote viewer so I could go back in time and watch these areas and see who actually was doing what and where they were doing it.

Originally posted by sisonek




When I was a kid one my friend's dad was one of those guys spending most of his weekends in the superstition mountains looking for the lost dutchman...like a lot of those guys he kept thinking he'd found tantalizing clues (old campfires, marks on the rocks, etc.) that kept it interesting for him, but, needless to say, he never found the mine. one thought, though: the topo maps for the area have been around forever, and if there's any obvious mine-looking thing on them no one's found it yet, but what's new (ie, within the past 5 years) is how easy it is to get quality satellite photographs. I don't have time or motivation to do this myself at the moment, but I'd be curious to accumulate some really high-res satellite maps of that whole region -- hopefully the 1-meter or less resolution -- and go to kinko's and make a big map (like wall-sized) and go through it with the proverbial fine-tooth comb looking for stuff that looks like mines, or where there might be caves. after you mark those off, you could plan a route to take, so you're not just wandering in the desert.

--- on guns and rattlesnakes / other wildlife:






---

HowardRoark: Is that really the actual lost dutchman? It wouldn't surprise me if it was, but given that it's also an apparent tourist trap it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't, either...whether it is or it isn't though, I do think it's funny that that tourist attraction exists...wish I'd thought of it, maybe I could've retired by now from sellin' fools' gold, stuffed jackalopes, tshirts, and treasure maps. I'm not up on all this, so if anyone knows, does anyone know for certain the Peralta vein's the same one the Lost Dutchman is supposed to have tapped into?

Groingrinder: As always, on the internet if you're interested in something there's already a webforum with people way more knowledgeable and interested than you; if you wouldn't mind I'd like to get hooked up with some worthwhile Arizona-related treasure hunting information (u2u or thread, doesn't matter). Offhand, do you know if anyone's done what I suggested upthread with the big satellite-photo map?

---

I have discussed with firedoc2368 a strategy involving the use of infrared satellite imagery to spot sub surface ore bodies. I wish there was ground penetrating radar data. And yes the Lost Dutchman is supposed to be one of the Peralta Mines. In one of Helen Corbin's Lost Dutchman books is a copy of Tom Kollenborn's hand annotated map showing many of the discoveries already made by others. This map is INVALUABLE and needs to be studied by anyone who is serious about cracking any of the Superstition Treasures. I am not knowledgeable by any means on the subject and constantly visit the Apache Junction Library to reacquaint myself with the subject matter. Rest assured that I am HOLDING NOTHING BACK and will assist to the best of my abilities all HONEST and forthright people who are serious about looking for Superstition Treasure. DO NOT LET THE GOVERNMENT TAKE IT ALL. Be smart, be discrete, do not be greedy.

Originally posted by BobCooke
There is a Windows program that you can use to download the 1 meter maps from Terraserver. It is USA Photo Maps. It is free and can be found at www.jdmcox.com.

It does a whole lot more, but I don't have the space to go into details. Go to the site, download and install the software and READ the .TXT file.


Good Luck.

Thanks for the info. I have been using a pay program called "EXPERT GPS" because it allows full interaction with my etrex gps unit. I do not think I get one meter resolution though and will check out your program and give it a test. Thanks for the good info.

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by firedoc2368
and must be proficient in the use of deadly force.

This is disturbing....

Especially if you happen to be a native american! If I was one I'd show up and get the first shot in quick!

Why not go set an auto gold dredge on a river In N.California and or take a metal detector. They have people in and around the Burnt Ranch area as well as Willow Creek who have been doing this for decades.

Originally posted by Ikema

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by firedoc2368
and must be proficient in the use of deadly force.

This is disturbing....

Especially if you happen to be a native american! If I was one I'd show up and get the first shot in quick!

Nobody said they were going into the wilderness to play cowboys and indians. If you research the LDM you will see there has been a persistent history of decapitations and people getting shot between the eyes. Some have speculated that it is the work of a band of Apaches loosly known as the "BLACK LEGION". It is much easier to believe that it is paranoid mine seekers who want the gold to themselves and cannot stand somebody else looking for it.

I once announced on a treasure hunting forum that I was looking for the LDM. A short while later I recieved an email from somebody calling me out to an old fashioned gunfight at high noon. YOU BET YOUR A*S*S I AM ARMED IN THE SUPERSTITION MOUNTAINS!!!

[edit on 1-31-2005 by groingrinder]

IntelRetard It is every prospectors dream to make a pilgrimage to the "Mecca" of gold mining known as the Mother Load of California. Unfortunately it takes more preparation than just plopping a dredge in a river. Most people spend a year or more getting their dredging permits from the government. Then you have to have vacation time and spare money for the trip. With that done, you still have to find a place to dredge. You see most of the good spots have been claimed for 150 years. My dream is to go to Alaska or Australia(home of monster nuggets).

Picture was taken Sat Feb 12 after several days of rain. It was nice to not worry about carrying water for my dog. There are not enough days like this.

That is by far the most beautiful landscape photo I've ever seen. It's no wonder so many intensely spiritual cultures sprang up in the region. Then the desert dried up for a while and everything changed. Oh to see it like that all year round..soon I think.

I'll move down to Arizona post haste as long as there's beach front property available. Arizona Bay here I come..

Thanks WyrdeOne. You might as well join the half of Canada, Wisconson, Minnesota, North and South Dakota, and Iowa who winter over here. Lots of folks like it enough to stick around for the summer barbecue.