If The US Civil War Was Fought Over Slavery What's Left To Argue About?

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Dude are you serious? Do you know how many lynchings and people were burned alive while people were holding those flags and cheering.

Cheering? Goddamn it, cheering is racist! I propose that the next SOB who dares to break out in a cheer, regardless the event, be enlightened about the genocidal, hate-filled symbolism associated with cheering and, if they continue to do it, their hands should be seized from them in an act of First Amendment protected protest. In most of the images of those times, I've observed the racists were fond of wearing pants or breeches, thus we should eliminate them as well. Same for the various shoes and boots worn. Ain't in no position to hate if you're butt-ass bare from the waist down! I've yet to see an image from a lynching that did not involve some manner of rope, either jute, cotton, or possible even hemp... ban them! It must not be allowed to possess these clear symbols of racism in America! Hmmm... now that I think about it, you usually see the KKK carrying several flags, often including the US flag... HATEFUL!!! Ban it and burn it! Many robes were made from sheets, so Americans had best by God get comfortable freeballing their mattresses, because those sheets of hatred need addressing. You know another connection between photos of hatred and hatred? cameras! Every photo I've seen of one of these atrocities was taken with a camera... Those are clearly instruments of hatred and must be outlawed ASAP.

In other words, say it with me kids: Perspective: You really need some of it.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

OMG! I am so filled with shame and self-loathing. I will immediately cancel my football tickets. I had no idea that hatred I was perpetrating on those poor, poor athletes by cheering for them. I thought it was positive ... but *sob*

a reply to: Asktheanimals

What's left to argue about is the people that didn't want that war to be won. They still live.

The Civil War battles ended but Southern resistance fought on in the rise of the 'Red Shirt' anti-Black vigilantes in 1878 in South Carolina and the rise of the KKK in South Carolina later and the rise of re-segregation and legal discrimintation under 'Jim Crow ' practices ('Whites Only') ffrom 1920 until 1964, and then the flying of the Confederate battle flag throughout the South as a sign of resistance to the 1964 Civil Rights act. No! THe South has continued to fight the Civil War in practice and signs 150 years after the war officially ended. That's the issue and the Confederate Flag, a reminder to all Africa-Amercans that slavery can come again, should be removed from public view to rest in appropriate museums.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

I posted this in another thread on ATS.

Your fixated on the Dixiecrats revival and use of the flag, yet they were founded and dissolved in 1948. How can a small group that existed decades ago for a very brief time get all the rights to call the historical narrative, why do they get to call the modern cultural origin ? Sorry but your giving them to much power and influence in the totality of the debate.

And Just for fun
Obama Pin With Flag

I've posted this elsewhere but for those who haven't seen it:

This is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia:


Need proof?:


This is the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee:


Please note these are military flags, not State or National flags.
Dixiecrats didn't invent either of these flags.

originally posted by: concerned190
Lincoln himself said

I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way
the social and political equality of the white and black races — that I am
not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes,
nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white
people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical
difference between the white and black races which I believe will
forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and
political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do
remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior,
and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior
position assigned to the white race.

1- Fehrenbacher, p. 636.

archive.org...

Its really funny how they hold up lincoln as the great emancipator when if the south would had cow towed to him slavery would had persisted. It was all about MONEY and resources. NOthing else truthfully.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

The Civil War was about slavery and the Confederate flag represented those who were in favor of it. Today, those who fly the flag would be in favor of it if they could have their way, make no mistake. The battle was fought, and the South lost. Just as you stated, "what's left to argue about?" And the price is far from being paid. Whether it's Native Americans or black Americans, white America has this "get over it" mentality because white America has always been the OPPRESSOR, and never the oppressed. Because of this white America truly has no idea of the effects of oppression, and therefore cannot begin to talk of atonement.

originally posted by: yuppa

Its really funny how they hold up lincoln as the great emancipator when if the south would had cow towed to him slavery would had persisted. It was all about MONEY and resources. NOthing else truthfully.

It has ALWAYS been about money and resources. It ALWAYS will be about money and resources. End of story.

Having read what the OP has stating here is the weigh in:

The US Civil War, initially was not about slavery. It was about states right, the south did not like what was going on and sought to withdraw and leave the union, that the north did not like. The slavery issue did not come about until later on, when then President Lincoln needed support from the northern states to see it through and win. When it was brought up, it was used as propaganda and a means to justify the continuation of the war and to show a higher morality. As anyone would tell you, that if the population does not support a war, that side will lose.

Now here is the issue and problem. Both sides are correct in their view point of the Confederate Battle Flag. The side that states it is history and heritage, is correct, many people in the south had ancestors who fought under those kinds of flags and want to celebrate that. It is not wrong for them to want, as many other groups around the country tend to do such. And they should have that right to look to such and other items, such as statues and points of the confederacy with pride.
On the other side, and this one to consider, the KKK has used the battle flag as a symbol to hate and persecute. Also many of the southern states that have this flag flying, used it as a symbol of rebellion against the civil rights movements. So thus those who would view this flag as a symbol of hate, especially those who were born in the 1940’s to about 1969, would have experienced that hatred and persecution first hand.

Both sides are correct, and yet they are not willing to accept the others point of view, and they are pushing and antagonizing the other side, and that is where the argument lays, as neither wants to back down and keep insisting that their point holds more weight.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

Then it boils down to this:

"Your flag offends me because it is racist. Will you please remove it?"
"No. It is a reminder of my regional heritage, not a symbol of racism."


What else is there to discuss? The only people that need to "give" are the ones that have the problem to begin with: the offended.

If i am being honest: i wish they'd get on with their lives, too. Im sick of wearing the Rebel Flag as an avatar.

a reply to: BunglingLout

Neither I nor my parents nor even grandparents ever oppressed anyone to my knowledge.
Sorry, but what do I owe anyone for exactly?
For what other white people did many years ago?

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
I've posted this elsewhere but for those who haven't seen it:

This is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia:

Need proof?:

This is the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee:

Please note these are military flags, not State or National flags.
Dixiecrats didn't invent either of these flags.

The dixiecrats say it with me the dixiecrats made that the flag to represent the confederacy.

The confederacy rejected that flag, it was used by some forces and on ships as a navy jack, but was never and I do mean never ever the flag to represent the confederacy. The confederacy had three flags and the rectangular one isnt one of them.

Only the dixiecrats revitilized it when they decided to protest no longer being able to lynch and kill African Americans in various horrific ways for entertainment for example by burning to death.

The dixiecrats choose that flag to represent the confederacy in 1948 and since then it has been recognized as the confederate flag by racists everywhere, it was used in various lynchings and hate crimes during the 40s-60s. It was also taken up as a symbol for the KKK and used to promote segregation since 1948. People who have no idea what the history of that flag is try to make up some other history for it. However it has a history already which is really really bad.

So if your flying the navy jack its bacause the dixiecrats flew it for racism, they didnt fly it for any other reasons whatsoever.

Why fall in line lock step after the dixiecrats and KKK, then try and change what the flag has been used used for and say its represents something else just after a shooting at an African American church.

People dont know thier own history, its just pathetic.

If your going to fly the rectangular flag understand what it means, understand its history, dont be ignorant of its history.
Because other people know what it means, and you will look uninformed if you dont know your being a racist by flying that flag which represents slavery, oppression, dehumanization, and racism.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I'll give you one thing - you're relentless.
I just showed you the origins of the flag (the Naval Jack was a rectangular version based on the square battle flag) and you still cling to this Dixiecrats nonsense.
There's Confederate battle flags on cars, bumperstickers, bedspreads, bikinis - people everywhere have appropriated it as a symbol. That takes nothing from those created it and fought and died under it.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I'll give you one thing - you're relentless.
I just showed you the origins of the flag (the Naval Jack was a rectangular version based on the square battle flag) and you still cling to this Dixiecrats nonsense.
There's Confederate battle flags on cars, bumperstickers, bedspreads, bikinis - people everywhere have appropriated it as a symbol. That takes nothing from those created it and fought and died under it.

Because dude it was the dixiecrats that made the rectangular naval jack popular by protersting no longer being able to lynch black people. How can you not understand that? Why use the naval jack like the dixiecrats and fall in lock step with them and wave the naval jack to represent the confederacy if your not doing it for the same reasons?

Lets not forget that there were many more hangings and people burned alive for sport after 1948 as a protest to civil rights. . .. . . .

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Having read what the OP has stating here is the weigh in:

The US Civil War, initially was not about slavery. It was about states right, the south did not like what was going on and sought to withdraw and leave the union, that the north did not like. The slavery issue did not come about until later on, when then President Lincoln needed support from the northern states to see it through and win. When it was brought up, it was used as propaganda and a means to justify the continuation of the war and to show a higher morality. As anyone would tell you, that if the population does not support a war, that side will lose.

Now here is the issue and problem. Both sides are correct in their view point of the Confederate Battle Flag. The side that states it is history and heritage, is correct, many people in the south had ancestors who fought under those kinds of flags and want to celebrate that. It is not wrong for them to want, as many other groups around the country tend to do such. And they should have that right to look to such and other items, such as statues and points of the confederacy with pride.
On the other side, and this one to consider, the KKK has used the battle flag as a symbol to hate and persecute. Also many of the southern states that have this flag flying, used it as a symbol of rebellion against the civil rights movements. So thus those who would view this flag as a symbol of hate, especially those who were born in the 1940’s to about 1969, would have experienced that hatred and persecution first hand.

Both sides are correct, and yet they are not willing to accept the others point of view, and they are pushing and antagonizing the other side, and that is where the argument lays, as neither wants to back down and keep insisting that their point holds more weight.

That's probably close to the truth; it was initialliy about economics. The southern states were trading more for manufactured good with England than they were with Northern industrial concerns. The northern states wanted high tariffs on the importation of finished goods that would force the South to buy their industrial finished goods from the North. So the South was in an uproar and invoked the States rights arguments against the tariffs and sought relief. Lincloln ginned up the slavery issue to invoke emotional support for the war; to turn it into a righteous crusade to save the slaves.

BUT.....that's not the accepted political correct settled version of history and isn't appropriate for discussion. Therefore.....the Civil war was only and all about Slavery.

originally posted by: TonyS

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Having read what the OP has stating here is the weigh in:

The US Civil War, initially was not about slavery. It was about states right, the south did not like what was going on and sought to withdraw and leave the union, that the north did not like. The slavery issue did not come about until later on, when then President Lincoln needed support from the northern states to see it through and win. When it was brought up, it was used as propaganda and a means to justify the continuation of the war and to show a higher morality. As anyone would tell you, that if the population does not support a war, that side will lose.

Now here is the issue and problem. Both sides are correct in their view point of the Confederate Battle Flag. The side that states it is history and heritage, is correct, many people in the south had ancestors who fought under those kinds of flags and want to celebrate that. It is not wrong for them to want, as many other groups around the country tend to do such. And they should have that right to look to such and other items, such as statues and points of the confederacy with pride.
On the other side, and this one to consider, the KKK has used the battle flag as a symbol to hate and persecute. Also many of the southern states that have this flag flying, used it as a symbol of rebellion against the civil rights movements. So thus those who would view this flag as a symbol of hate, especially those who were born in the 1940’s to about 1969, would have experienced that hatred and persecution first hand.

Both sides are correct, and yet they are not willing to accept the others point of view, and they are pushing and antagonizing the other side, and that is where the argument lays, as neither wants to back down and keep insisting that their point holds more weight.

That's probably close to the truth; it was initialliy about economics. The southern states were trading more for manufactured good with England than they were with Northern industrial concerns. The northern states wanted high tariffs on the importation of finished goods that would force the South to buy their industrial finished goods from the North. So the South was in an uproar and invoked the States rights arguments against the tariffs and sought relief. Lincloln ginned up the slavery issue to invoke emotional support for the war; to turn it into a righteous crusade to save the slaves.

BUT.....that's not the accepted political correct settled version of history and isn't appropriate for discussion. Therefore.....the Civil war was only and all about Slavery.

How on earth could ever believe the civil war wasnt about slavery. The people fighting it said it was about slavery, what on earth are you talking about? They said we are fighting for the right own slaves period and thats it, not anything else. I challenge you to find a quote of where the civil war generals mentioned any other reason other than slavery, please I will wait. Just slavery and thats all stop trying to rewrite history its ludicrous to even attempt it.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

How on earth could ever believe the civil war wasnt about slavery. The people fighting it said it was about slavery, what on earth are you talking about? They said we are fighting for the right own slaves period and thats it, not anything else. I challenge you to find a quote of where the civil war generals mentioned any other reason other than slavery, please I will wait. Just slavery and thats all stop trying to rewrite history its ludicrous to even attempt it.

Funny thing: the quotes are all from the stodgy old farts at the top of the food chain. None of them carried a rifle. They weren't the people fighting the war.

If you want to know what the people fighting the war were fighting about...look for diaries and such from actual soldiers. The ones who actually gave up something to fight.

LOL at the very notion of letting the leaders speak for the people.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

How many people listen to the soldiers when you ask them what they fought for in Iraq? How many people just say we fought for oil or to enrich Cheney's pockets instead? The fact of the matter is, the leader's opinions is all that we care about when it comes to the history books. Plus, it's not like propaganda didn't exist back then either.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

Well colour and creed aside, 99% of your citizens are slaves to the 1%, that's possibly an issue that's gone unresolved for quite some time now. And arguably a reason if ever there was one pertaining to civil war. It's not like the situation is ever going to resolve itself considering the people in charge.