If a woman lies about being on the pill, is it rape by deception?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: ketsuko

Surely the particular reasons a person may or may consent to sex are not determined by your particular moral standpoint?
No means no, regardless of the reasons why.
I would have said no had she told the truth. Pretty simple concept as far as I see it.

It's not morals. It's reality and thinking ahead before you indulge. My morals say she's not your wife, why are we even having this convo in the first place?

If you don't want to deal with all the possible consequences of sex with THAT person, then you shouldn't hook up with them. It is possible to find partners that you can trust to be level-headed and to work with if the unforeseen does happen.

There is no moral there just the realization that you could wind up facing some pretty heavy s***, and if the person you are with isn't someone you can trust for that in some capacity, then maybe it's just best not to go there.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

No I didn't. I asked you a question because you made the parallel that the father, having been lied to about the contraceptives, lost a lot of time taking care of a child that he shouldn't of had to take care of in response to me talking about a mother losing time with her child because she is in prison due to the father having pressed charges against her. Perhaps you didn't understand my point clearly enough? Because to me what you did CLEARLY looks like you just compared fatherhood to prison time.

a reply to: ketsuko

So it is the fault of the person lied to, not the liar then?
Interesting.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
You should see that the consequences of this politician getting his way would be disastrous.

I do, it would be a can of worms for sure.

So why didn't you say that in the OP? You ARE supposed to give your opinion on the matter according to the T&C. Why do you think so many think you are siding with the politician in this thread? You didn't make your opinions clear enough. The personal anecdote was nice and all, but it really doesn't shed light on what you actually think about the proposed measure.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Then you're clearly confused, and there's no point in continuing this discussion with you.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Then you're clearly confused, and there's no point in continuing this discussion with you.

Yea that's nice. Don't attempt to explain yourself better and just quit the conversation...

i get where you are coming from, and i would feel the same if it happened to me.
Probably the main reason i tend to finish my business on the outside, so to speak.
But i guess what you will find is that in this case, rape is a strong word, and it was up to you to protect yourself no matter what she was telling you, and if that wasn't possible, you should have rescheduled.

Like i said, i see your point and overall it stinks of deceit, but calling it a rape would mean she drugged you, tied you or forced you in some other way.

If i told a woman i was a billionaire just to have sex with her and then she found out i was lying, i don't think anyone could accuse me of raping her with my lie.

a reply to: grainofsand

Could the woman charge "Rape by Deception" if the man lied to her by saying, "I love you, baby! Of course, I'll always be there for you..." and then left her pregnant and was never heard from again?

I think it's the same thing, and not, by any means, rape. To me, rape involves FORCE, either physical or threats of danger.

The rule of the dating world should be buyer beware. If YOU don't have protection (condom) then you don't take the chance, because even WITH protection, a woman can get pregnant. If you're not ready to deal with a child, then don't have sex. It shouldn't be a crime to lie to someone.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I asked a question, apologies for not conforming to T & C's, perhaps click alert, you seem rather emotional about the whole thing as it is, I have clearly caused you some distress and apologise profusely.

a reply to: grainofsand

I'm not emotional. I'm trying to have a reasoned discussion with you by sitting down and discussing the consequences of the proposal. I made an assumption about your stance on the matter because you failed to provide your opinion on the bill in the OP

I have no emotional investment in this matter whatsoever. I don't live in Jersey and I haven't had sex recently enough for me to worry about getting someone pregnant. So this issue wouldn't affect me regardless, but that doesn't prevent me from seeing the consequences of this going through or anything.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Dude. You do this far too often. Why should I buy into your nonsense, and why should I explain myself when you care not to listen?

I'm in no way comparing the two. It's just not what the word means. Do you know what compare means? Do you realize that assigning an offense should in no way be considered a comparison for the act itself?

Is a two year sentence for rape a comparison for the rape? How the hell does your mind make up this nonsense?

No way, I'm not going to follow you on this crazy train of thought. Lay off the pipe.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

So the general consensus appears to be that 'rape by deception' is not a thing then.
I'm cool with that, but interesting to see if New Jersey goes down that legislative road.

originally posted by: ketsuko
If you don't want to deal with all the possible consequences of sex with THAT person, then you shouldn't hook up with them.

I agree. Men and women should THINK first, before taking such a big chance. We all know what can happen as a result of sex. It's a matter of personal responsibility. Being gullible is not the other person's fault.

Is it sneaky, deceitful and horrible? Absolutely! But rape? No. I do think it could become a civil case (for child support or custody reasons), but people have been deceiving each other since the beginning... If everyone who lied went to jail, we'd all be there!

a reply to: grainofsand

Rape involves some form of sexual assault. Men lie to get there end away all the time, it not rape just poor form. So i dont see how woman doing the same could somehow be interpreted as rape. Its Deception yes, but not rape.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Being gullible is not the other person's fault.

I disagree, if someone lies to me then they are solely at fault. Regardless of the situation.
You appear to be defending lies as an accepted part of life.
I agree many people lie so one should accept it, but the difference between us is I condemn the liar alone, whereas you appear to blame people who are trusting?
Strange concept.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

So the general consensus appears to be that 'rape by deception' is not a thing then.

That's my opinion. I read the source and one thing they did mention was misrepresenting one's self and getting MONEY from the other person. In that case, I'm pretty sure there are already legal avenues one can explore, but that's still not rape.

I look at it from the personal responsibility viewpoint. If I am responsible for having sex with someone, I'm responsible for the resulting pregnancy, whether I'm a man or woman or whether there was a claim of contraception or not. We all need to take more personal responsibility and face the consequences of what we do.

a reply to: andy06shake

Agreed, I was asking the question based on the links I posted in the OP.
IF the concept of 'rape by deception' ever became a thing then my example of women lying that they are on the pill would qualify.

deception
not rape

are u unlucky wtf do bad women just swarm you?

said it... seen it.. yes hugged deception to lock a guy in..

maybe it is just natural motherhood want / need

it always ends up bad
not for the guy either

originally posted by: grainofsand
I disagree, if someone lies to me then they are solely at fault. Regardless of the situation.

Absolutely agree! They are responsible for lying, but if YOU choose to have sex with them, that's your responsibility.

You appear to be defending lies as an accepted part of life.

I'm not defending lying. I HATE lying. But it is a part of life as a human being. I condemn the liar for the lie, but believing the lie and deciding to have sex is both people's responsibility.

Would the reverse apply if the guy used the Alka Seltzer condom trick?