If a woman lies about being on the pill, is it rape by deception?

a reply to: grainofsand

How about if a women forgets to take the pill. Would it be rape by mistake then...

a reply to: purplemer
What happens if she says she's on the pill but what she calls the pill is paracetamol. She didn't lie...

a reply to: purplemer

Cracking funnies in a thread about rape?

Classy.

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: grainofsand

How about if a women forgets to take the pill. Would it be rape by mistake then...

Valid question. No. Well, almost certainly not.

A genuine mistake is very different from deliberately lying.

Now, there might be some mileage in negligence. I'd have to check, but I can't be bothered at the moment as I'm busy multitasking...

a reply to: grainofsand

Since you were not forced to make your decision and had the right to opt out. No it's not

originally posted by: everyone

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
I don't think it qualifies as rape myself.

38 years ago a woman was on birth control pills and found out 3 months into a pregnancy that she was pregnant. She had not missed a pill, nor taken any medication that would make the pill any less potent for its purpose.

As I'm typing to you, that baby that was a surprise and born 3 months early was me.

So no. I don't see it as rape as the only way to be 100% sure that no baby will enter this world is abstinence or have it at such an old age that it's impossible to get pregnant.

It was a dirty, foul, despicable thing she did to you of course, but still not rape IMO. As there was still a chance she could have gotten pregnant had she originally been telling the truth. I'm living, breathing proof that "oopsies" can and do occur even when precautions are taken correctly.

That is not the point at all.

A accident is a accident. Your mother took the pill, your father knew she took the pill so she did not lie about anything. That is a completely different scenerio compared to a woman who intentionaly lies about having taken birth control in order to convince you to have sex with them in order to have a baby or be able to claim that the baby is yours because of that.

If a woman lies to a man about birth control telling him that she took it only to later lay claim on him because of the pregnancy ,knowinlgy and wqithouth his consent there in i will MOST certaintly call that rape.

The vast MULTITUDES of women and men who can now claim rape from ripped condoms should be flooding the courthouses soon.

Not to mention the multitudes that will now have to fight for their insurance companies to pay for rape kits after the fact. Were you raped? Well... Not at first but then I found out last week that she really didn't take birth control like she said so....

There are support groups for rape victims. I'm sure any one of us would be comfortable going in there to share a story about how someone lied about being on birth control or how one has PTSD because the condom tore during the act with men and women who were brutally and savagely.... raped. Really raped. Not the kind of "I need to feel special, coddled, and martyred, "raped" because I didn't choose my partners more wisely "raped".

It's getting a little disgusting how folks are taking words that describe something absolutely horrific and stretching it out to fit whatever purpose they need at the moment.

Someone being an absolutely low life individual and lying to someone about being on birth control is a far cry from rape. A far cry. Don't take the power of that word away simply because your judgement in people and their character sucks. That's all this boils down to. You chose to sleep with someone who could not be trusted. That's not rape. That's simply bad judgement. Sorry. Calling it something else doesn't let anyone off the hook for not taking any personal responsibility for their own safety.

If you are sleeping with people you can't trust, either don't sleep with them, or use your own protection. They make it for both men and women now. So BOTH can share the wonders of it. Yet here we are... Still trying to pin it on others.

Is it rape when the man claims to have more money than he actually does? Is it rape when he promises to call the next day and doesn't? Is it rape if he tells you that he'll still respect you in the morning and doesn't? Is it rape when you wake up in bed with a woman who has taken off her DD padded bra and is now an A cup with no lashes, green eyes instead of blue, and weave?

Ludicrous.

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: grainofsand

Since you were not forced to make your decision and had the right to opt out. No it's not

Really? The difference between sex and rape is that both parties consent and are capable of consenting.

If you're basing that consent on a lie, is it still genuine consent?

The law, in these circumstances, says... nope.

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe

It's getting a little disgusting how folks are taking words that describe something absolutely horrific and stretching it out to fit whatever purpose they need at the moment.

The word has a specific legal meaning. Yes, in the vast majority of cases, the way that (lack of) consent is overcome in by force, making it absolutely horrific... but that doesn't stop the word having a specific legal meaning.

Do you object to the use of the phrase "statutory rape"? Or do you want to trivialise those victims as well?

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe

It's getting a little disgusting how folks are taking words that describe something absolutely horrific and stretching it out to fit whatever purpose they need at the moment.

The word has a specific legal meaning. Yes, in the vast majority of cases, the way that (lack of) consent is overcome in by force, making it absolutely horrific... but that doesn't stop the word having a specific legal meaning.

Do you object to the use of the phrase "statutory rape"? Or do you want to trivialise those victims as well?

Yes. I'd like to trivialize those victims as well.

Seriously? That's a discussion?

You want all the kids to die cold and hungry in the streets if you don't agree with (insert flavor of the month here).

Not really a game I enjoy playing.

Apologies for not being able to reply to all the contributors to this thread, but thank you to everyone for all the varied and interesting points raised.

I would like to say a special thanks to EvillerBob for his fantastic legal information throughout, without which this thread would probably be an absolute mess of emotional opinion.

It has been interesting to learn that in the UK, if a man clearly states a condition that he does not consent to sex if the woman is not using birth control, she commits a criminal offence if she lies to him in order to gain the consent. Sex without consent is a crime of rape and the woman could be prosecuted as such.

Now, it is clear that the majority of posters here disagree with it, sharing all sorts of opinions and moral lecturing regarding casual sex or whatever, but it matters little now as the legal question has been answered.
If a woman lies to a man about using contraception, and he has clearly stated a condition of his consent is that she must be using contraception, she could be prosecuted for rape because there was no legal consent.

I imagine unless a woman actually pleaded guilty it would be very difficult to prove, but I support the principle of the law, as a message by the criminal justice system that lying in such circumstances as the OP can be prosecuted as rape.

Now that is understood I guess we can all debate the merits or not of the law etc, but please, do take moral lectures about casual sex etc to a thread of your own.

Thanks again to everyone for making this an interesting thread.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Yeah, thought you were bowing out.

The only thing I am saying is that he is still responsible for having sex, meaning that he could have said no. He had a CHOICE, he could have put a condom on no matter what she said. I don't condone lying, and I think any woman that does this is reprehensible to say in the least. Rape is force, having sex with someone who lies about birth control is not rape in any form.

It has nothing to do with "ducking out", and it sounds like he did the right thing, but that is not the point, the point is the term "rape by deception". People who are raped are forced, in no way was he forced to have sex with her.

If I were a single guy and had to have casual sex, the term "no glove, no love", would absolutely apply to my lifestyle.

a reply to: artnut

No, you are incorrect, in the UK rape is sex without legal consent. Lies and deception in order to obtain consent is not legal consent.
Without legal consent the sex is rape.
I am from the UK and the OP story happened in the UK.

...as I've said lots of times I'm not whining about anything here either, it was a question to inspire debate with a true story to add interest. The incident happened before the law became established, and it's fairly obvious I wouldn't have complained to the police even if it had, but it was a valid question and we know the answer now. Legally at least.

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
Yes. I'd like to trivialize those victims as well.

To be fair, the question was essentially rhetorical as you had already answered it with the previous post.

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
Seriously? That's a discussion?

I never thought it would be. Somehow you made it one.

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe
You want all the kids to die cold and hungry in the streets if you don't agree with (insert flavor of the month here).

Not really a game I enjoy playing.

Yet, according to you, we're all ludicrous for not agreeing with your particular flavour of the month?

You don't need to play any game. There isn't actually a game to play. There is, however, a bit of official paper issued by the government stating "if x, y, and z happens, we're going to officially call it rape". People jumping up and down and complaining that someone wasn't raped enough to count has no bearing on that, so it has no bearing on whether OP's situation can be described as rape.

No one is taking the word and stretching it. You're trying to take a term with a distinct meaning and claim it for your own special use, refusing to acknowledge anyone else who legitimately falls within that distinct meaning.

originally posted by: grainofsand

I would like to say a special thanks to EvillerBob for his fantastic legal information throughout, without which this thread would probably be an absolute mess of emotional opinion.

Meh, don't worry about it. I only come here for the petty fighting and to mock the ill-informed and dull of wit.

This thread was like shooting fish in a barrel

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: grainofsand

I would like to say a special thanks to EvillerBob for his fantastic legal information throughout, without which this thread would probably be an absolute mess of emotional opinion.

Meh, don't worry about it. I only come here for the petty fighting and to mock the ill-informed and dull of wit.

This thread was like shooting fish in a barrel

Suicide is a terrible thing....

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: purplemer

Cracking funnies in a thread about rape?

Classy.

Thank you but i was not joking. If you kill someone on purpose its murder if you do so by accident its manslaughter.

whats the difference...

originally posted by: purplemer

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: purplemer

Cracking funnies in a thread about rape?

Classy.

Thank you but i was not joking. If you kill someone on purpose its murder if you do so by accident its manslaughter.

whats the difference...

Don't get me started on that, that's a whole different argument. Under UK law, you don't need to intend to kill someone for it to be murder.

originally posted by: purplemer

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: purplemer

Cracking funnies in a thread about rape?

Classy.

Thank you but i was not joking. If you kill someone on purpose its murder if you do so by accident its manslaughter.

whats the difference...

The lie about contraception use when it was a condition of consent for sex was the difference, there is the intent, while forgetting with no negligence questions of course would be different.
That is how the UK justice system sees it anyway.

No legal consent due to lying then it is a rape crime in UK law.
Quite similar to the charges in Sweden facing Assange for allegedly not using a condom when it was a condition for consent to sex through alleged deception.

I found this interesting to learn because when I started the thread/OP question I did not know.

originally posted by: Kangaruex4Ewe

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: grainofsand

I would like to say a special thanks to EvillerBob for his fantastic legal information throughout, without which this thread would probably be an absolute mess of emotional opinion.

Meh, don't worry about it. I only come here for the petty fighting and to mock the ill-informed and dull of wit.

This thread was like shooting fish in a barrel

Suicide is a terrible thing....

I used to live by the motto "live fast, die young". That didn't work out as planned, so now I'm living by the motto "live to middle age, die of illnesses related to excessive sugar intake".