Was I Wrong To Support Gay Marriage? (Nope! But we can still do better...)

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: Boadicea

Now you I can respect

You are showing consistency in your point of view on discrimination...

Thank you! That's very kind and I appreciate it. I try very hard to focus on fundamental principles, and to always remember there are three sides to every story: your side -- my side -- and the truth (so to speak... the truth can be quite elusive!)

...and I would come round as far to say that I agree - it's all i.e. you can discriminate freely based upon belief and conscience without fear of legal action (I'm not sure how far things would devolve though) or nothing i.e. we are all forced to serve everyone.

In my heart, and in practice, I know that we must serve others on some level or our lives have absolutely no value or meaning. Quite often the most humbling experiences are the greatest life lessons. But I also know that forced servitude too often teaches the wrong lessons. If our hearts are not in it, then it can create greater problems than it serves.

Your view highlights an interesting cultural difference between our nations actually. Here where I live there are andtidiscrimination laws in effect that have been so for quite a few years. The view I take is already law here and to be honest, I hardly ever read of legal battles over it.

I love my country and its founding principles... but sometimes, in the real world, people can be quite litigious and, well, I'll leave it at that.

SO, yes you can live honestly like you propose but in reality with the laws they way they are, people WILL sue. Or you can live a little dishonestly like we have to and put up a facade for the greater good and keeping that annoying SOB you just wanna slap happy in the hopes you'll make another dollar.

And that pretty much sums it up!

a reply to: Boadicea

I don't want to ever regret supporting marriage between same-sex couples.

But if religions are forced to go against their tenets, then I'll have to fight for them.

a reply to: beezzer

Awwww...You could never regret supporting me

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Boadicea

I don't want to ever regret supporting marriage between same-sex couples.

But if religions are forced to go against their tenets, then I'll have to fight for them.

Exactly! Thank you for saying that so succinctly.

I have no problem with gay marriage... I have no problem with churches/ministers being true to their conscience either way... I'm just very disturbed by what I see as the blurring of very clear lines in the issue.

One of the beauties of our country is that we can have options.... not just one-size-fits-all.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: beezzer

Awwww...You could never regret supporting me

I'll always support you Darth, but if the 1st Amendment comes under attack, then I'll have to defend the religions.

a reply to: Boadicea

I get where Christianity is coming from, I really do. I was born, raised and confirmed in a full monty church on Sunday and obligation days, fish on Friday, confession once a month rosary praying Catholic family.

A lot of the time I feel like I have a foot on a landmine in both the camps of Christianity and the gay community. On one hand I am openly gay but on the other I do still have lingering belief.

The thing I think that Christians need to understand is that we are just people. Many of us are battered and broken and just doing our best to keep our heads above water. Calling us out, condemning us and discriminating against us only serves to make deep wounds even more painful.

Gay pride is not about pissing Chrisitanity off, it's about self esteem for people who often struggle with it.

I know how incompatible the two are having had to live with and reconcile them both. I attempted and was successful at suicide because if my sexuality when I was 17. It was only some very determined nurses who resuscitated me that means I am here posting this today. If you were to ask me if I were to have my time again, would I change what I did and not try to kill myself and the answer would be yes - but this time I would make sure I was successful at suicide.

That is a shocking thing to say I know, but I lost 15 years (the best years) of my life to depression, My life was a living hell with the conflict and rejection in my family, the lack of self esteem, the bad relationships, the financial insecurity and worst of all the terrible internal conflict religion vs self caused me. Catholicism is a religion of guilt and the guilt of feeling such a failure in the eyes of God was more than any person should have to bear..

So instead of going to college and achieving higher learning (I was told at High School I was one of the fortunate students who had the intelligence to be anything I wanted) I spent the ages of 17 - 32 lost and wandering the desert just trying to survive. There were other suicide attempts, none successful of course, but now the irony is now that I have found peace with myself all that abuse on my body has come back to haunt me and my health is definitely not my strongest point any more.

All of this was caused because my Church and my family disowned me when I needed them most. They chose to follow their faith and discriminate then turfed me out into the wilderness leaving me to the cold darkness of my own despair

So, you see I get that Christianity is against homosexuality, but what you Christians don't understand is the torment you put upon us. Every time you deny us service because we are gay, every time you speak against us you are driving the knife a bit further into an already very open wound.

Yes many of us will be vocal and shout back, we are the survivors. We're the ones who have somehow managed to conquer the mountain of self acceptance and we stand up for the ten more of us stuck at the bottom in despair as so many of us were.

None of what I say is intended to be an attack on Christianity or any single person. I've forgiven my family now and we are on good terms again, although I hate to think what would happen if I said the 'M" word to them - they are firmly opposed to it and nothing will ever change that. My partner is still only referred to as my 'friend' by both of them, even after 10 years of 'friendship'.

I am not looking for sympathy either, my story is sadly fairly typical for those of us who grew up under Christian roofs, so I make no claim of being more worthy of pity than anyone else.

All I ask is that when as a Christian you see a gay person and start to get worked up to remember people like me. We're not your enemy, we don't hate you and if you were just a little kind to us, you might discover how decent we can be as human beings back to you.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: beezzer

Awwww...You could never regret supporting me

I'll always support you Darth, but if the 1st Amendment comes under attack, then I'll have to defend the religions.

Freedom of religion does not necessarily translate into rigid following of the bible or any other religious text though.

I'm not trying to undermine you here, but you do realise that this argument could be used to justify say stoning a homosexual person to death, because the OT says to do it and therefore it's part of your religion and is therefore protected by the constitution don't you. I know murder is a long stretch and would not hold water in court in all reality, but it is an extrapolation of the freedom of religion claim that I am seeing at the moment to it's extreme.

The gay marriage thing has got a lot of people upset and confused and I know it's a delicate balance between a newly gained freedom and a long time assumed one for religion.

I think the true debate now is not so much what change will gay marriage bring upon the freedom of religion as it is what actually does that term really mean in a modern multicutural world where religion is still relevant, but not the all dominating power it used to be.

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: Boadicea

On one hand I am openly gay but on the other I do still have lingering belief.

Perhaps because the kingdom of God is within you -- and all of us -- not in a building of glass and mortar. And no church or any person can ever take that away no matter how hard they try. Let your light shine.

The thing I think that Christians need to understand is that we are just people. Many of us are battered and broken and just doing our best to keep our heads above water. Calling us out, condemning us and discriminating against us only serves to make deep wounds even more painful.

I wish more Christians understood this too. I wish everyone would understand that we are all just people. All of us have been broken and battered to one extent or another, for one reason or another, by one person or another. I can only imagine the pain of having what must feel like the entire world beating up on you day in and day out, and worse being threatened with the eternal wrath of God, just because of who you love -- especially from those who claim the mantle of Christ -- who loves everyone and told us to do the same.

Gay pride is not about pissing Chrisitanity off, it's about self esteem for people who often struggle with it.

I'll let you in on a little secret... Christians also struggle with self-esteem. Some know it and some don't. Some turn to God and Jesus to find that self-esteem. Others use God and Jesus to hide that lack of self-esteem. Those who use God and Jesus to beat up others have not found it -- even if they think they have. We can all have different opinions, thoughts, and beliefs, but when you use your own to tear down someone else, it is a sign of fear and cowardice, using what strength you do have to build yourself up at someone else's expense. My heart hurts for them also.

I know how incompatible the two are having had to live with and reconcile them both. I attempted and was successful at suicide because if my sexuality when I was 17. It was only some very determined nurses who resuscitated me that means I am here posting this today.

Nurses are earth angels. I am so happy they were there for you.

...the guilt of feeling such a failure in the eyes of God was more than any person should have to bear...

Truer words were never spoken. Never ever forget that. God loves you more than you can ever know. Always has and always will.

So instead of going to college and achieving higher learning (I was told at High School I was one of the fortunate students who had the intelligence to be anything I wanted) I spent the ages of 17 - 32 lost and wandering the desert just trying to survive. There were other suicide attempts, none successful of course, but now the irony is now that I have found peace with myself all that abuse on my body has come back to haunt me and my health is definitely not my strongest point any more.

We're not all meant to follow the same path. I sure don't have the wisdom to understand why things happen the way they do. But I do know that God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to behold... and I beleive that you are one of those wonders. Having experienced what you have, knowing what you know, you can shine your light for others as they walk their paths -- for the faithful and the faithless and everyone in between. You have something very valuable now to share with the world. And I'm really honored that you are here, sharing it with me.

All of this was caused because my Church and my family disowned me when I needed them most. They chose to follow their faith and discriminate then turfed me out into the wilderness leaving me to the cold darkness of my own despair

You are not alone. Families can really suck sometimes -- as I know too well! -- and it doesn't have to have anything to do with our sexual orientation either.

Yes many of us will be vocal and shout back, we are the survivors. We're the ones who have somehow managed to conquer the mountain of self acceptance and we stand up for the ten more of us stuck at the bottom in despair as so many of us were.

I get that. I am hoping and praying with all my heart that this Supreme Court decision will be the catalyst to open eyes and hearts to new truths. There will be much anger, fear, hesitation, confusion at first, on all sides. This is new and uncharted territory for all of us in so many ways. We are pioneers! But we can and will learn from it and we can all be better persons for it.

I've forgiven my family now and we are on good terms again...

I am very happy to hear that!!!

... although I hate to think what would happen if I said the 'M" word to them - they are firmly opposed to it and nothing will ever change that. My partner is still only referred to as my 'friend' by both of them, even after 10 years of 'friendship'.

Give it time. We all have much to learn and accept. You have helped your family grow in their love in their faith. I know it was hell for you, but you have given them a valuable gift.

I am not looking for sympathy either, my story is sadly fairly typical for those of us who grew up under Christian roofs, so I make no claim of being more worthy of pity than anyone else.

I never got the impression otherwise from you. What I do feel is your strength and love for others -- and I admire and respect that immensely. I wish you all the best as you continue to grow and move forward in life.

All I ask is that when as a Christian you see a gay person and start to get worked up to remember people like me. We're not your enemy, we don't hate you and if you were just a little kind to us, you might discover how decent we can be as human beings back to you.

I can promise you I never have and never will "get worked up," and I will always remember you. I am so very encouraged at how many Christians are sharing their love of Jesus and their love for all in that spirit. It's a long road we have to travel, but we've already taken the initial steps.

a reply to: markosity1973

P.S. If you haven't seen/read this yet, I hope you will:

6 Ways Christians Lost This Week

And this:

How Should Christians Treat Their Gay Neighbors?

I am so very heartened and encouraged that so many Christians are opening their hearts and minds to our fellow man with the love of Jesus, and expressing themselves publicly. I hope you can be too.

Together, we can all bring respect and hope and love to the table.

a reply to: Boadicea

Finally those from the heart in the body of Christ are speaking out

I hope all Christians understand that if the heart is strong then the rest of body is strong, but if the heart is weak the rest of the body will whither.

As someone from a Christian upbringing, I am acutely aware of what the bible says about gay people. As a human being I'm one of those said gay people and like the rest of us I have to do the best I can with the hand I was dealt.

All Christians need to understand is that we didn't choose our sexuality but we damned well have to live with it on this mortal plane. This means that we just want to live our lives in the same way as other secular people - in equality and without judgement. We're not trying to trample Christianity or pummel it into submission, but I do understand the difficulty some people are having with change and that it may feel that way to them.