What about the flag that flew over the Trail of Tears?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Considering a mod has it as the background behind his avatar picture on the first page, what do you think?

Flags don't hate people, people do.

All flags should be replaced with a hand forever flipping the bird, available in colours of your choice.

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: dreamingawake
designer William T. Thompson

In May 1863, when Thompson discovered that his design had been chosen by the Confederate Congress to become the Confederacy's next national flag, he was pleased. He praised his design as symbolizing the Confederacy's ideology and its cause of "a superior race", as well as for bearing little resemblance to the U.S. flag, which he called the "infamous banner of the Yankee vandals".

Lol

lol?

a reply to: incoserv

the Flag in question had been hijacked and turned against the other Flag...his Uncle in a manner of speaking. many are reminded that their 'king' is not the Son, but is the Son's Sisters children...but they continue to choose not to listen to reason even though their very own book confirms it.

in May 2011, the Confederacy, under the directions of foreign powers, made another run at Old Glory and failed. its actions were unjustified and foul in the extreme.

seems that it was the last straw and its been decided that it should be removed and all of its army rolled into NATO or something.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JUhrman

It's funny how a request to remove a flag from a state building has warped into people trying to get the flag banned. Right wing hyperbole at its finest...

and republicans wonder why liberals go on and on about this....to them, getting the flag removed from government buildings means banning the flag from flying anywhere, electing Obama is putting a Kenyan in as president, letting women decide what to do with their own bodies, means killing babies, letting Americans vote that don't have picture ID's is massive voter fraud, having people buy guns that have been declared insane, is destroying the second amendment. the top .1 percent, pays inheritance taxes , but, it is called a death tax on every American citizen...I could go on, but I like to keep it short

a reply to: jimmyx

Yea, the go to Republican argumentative tactic is the strawman. That is certainly plain as day.

originally posted by: JUhrman
That's a bit of an hyperbole.

I think the main request was to remove it from an official building.

If people fly it home or if stores refuse to sell it anymore, it's THEIR decision. Freedom goes both way.

If someone can show me where there are requests to destroy this flag everywhere I would like to see them. I think it's simply a fallacy to scare and polarize people just like when the NRA claims the gov wants to disarm the country.

No, my comment was not hyperbole at all, it's a pretty simple point. Anyone who thinks that a symbol's removal, destruction, or suppression is going to make any lasting positive difference just doesn't how life works.

And for the record, my comment concerned flags in general--I wasn't being specific about any particular flag. Also, way to nitpick a part of my comment that wasn't even the main point of what I said in the entirety of my comment.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JUhrman

It's funny how a request to remove a flag from a state building has warped into people trying to get the flag banned. Right wing hyperbole at its finest...

Call me nuts, but isn't wanting a flag taken town from a state building asking for it to be banned from display at the state building? Are we really arguing these types of semantics and then trying to pretend that the "Right wing" is the one misstating things?

I agree that a state capital should not be displaying the battle flag of a group of states that went to war against our country. I do not, however, buy into the crap argument that removing it will somehow quell racist tendencies in those who are bread to be racist. I disagree with the "why" behind the requests to remove/ban the flag from the state capital--it was a knee-jerk emotional reaction to a terrible tragedy, and instead of focusing on what really matters (the tragedy), there are more threads about a damn flag than about the people who died.

These flag threads are a damn joke, propped up by people with divisive aspirations who want to blame everything on one side or another. What a waste.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
1. Perfect example of the golden age fallacy. Do you honestly believe that people used to be smarter, better informed and less easily led? Why? I wonder if you'd have the same opinion if they'd left behind Facebook profiles and Twitter feeds?

Facebook and Twitter are two of the largest factors rendering modern humanity into the babbling idiots constantly mocking outrage today. I don't believe people used to be smarter, but I absolutely believe people used to possess perspective and common sense which has been utterly lost today. We have zero perspective in society as a whole.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: JUhrman
That's a bit of an hyperbole.

I think the main request was to remove it from an official building.

If people fly it home or if stores refuse to sell it anymore, it's THEIR decision. Freedom goes both way.

If someone can show me where there are requests to destroy this flag everywhere I would like to see them. I think it's simply a fallacy to scare and polarize people just like when the NRA claims the gov wants to disarm the country.

No, my comment was not hyperbole at all, it's a pretty simple point. Anyone who thinks that a symbol's removal, destruction, or suppression is going to make any lasting positive difference just doesn't how life works.

And for the record, my comment concerned flags in general--I wasn't being specific about any particular flag. Also, way to nitpick a part of my comment that wasn't even the main point of what I said in the entirety of my comment.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: JUhrman

It's funny how a request to remove a flag from a state building has warped into people trying to get the flag banned. Right wing hyperbole at its finest...

Call me nuts, but isn't wanting a flag taken town from a state building asking for it to be banned from display at the state building? Are we really arguing these types of semantics and then trying to pretend that the "Right wing" is the one misstating things?

I agree that a state capital should not be displaying the battle flag of a group of states that went to war against our country. I do not, however, buy into the crap argument that removing it will somehow quell racist tendencies in those who are bread to be racist. I disagree with the "why" behind the requests to remove/ban the flag from the state capital--it was a knee-jerk emotional reaction to a terrible tragedy, and instead of focusing on what really matters (the tragedy), there are more threads about a damn flag than about the people who died.

Exactly there are many things to take into consideration why the killer did this. But they are all brushed aside now for political agenda gain.

Those who say they are not trying to rally remove the flag from more than capitals(or in this case off of a memorial that is on state grounds not flying over the state capital as some suggest) are the same ones promoting it is only racism.

These flag threads are a damn joke, propped up by people with divisive aspirations who want to blame everything on one side or another. What a waste.

Basically what this whole thing amounts to anyway. It's another left vs right tactic to paint one side as racists furthering divide.

a reply to: JUhrman

The Confederate Battle Flag was used after the Civil War in countless memorials because it was seen as honouring the Confederate war dead and this particular flag was never an official flag of the Confederacy analogous to the Unions Stars&Stripes. It is a myth that it was only revived by the KKK and used thereafter. After the Civil War the cult of Robert E. Lee was very widespread, and the flag he used in battle with his particular army corps was the Confederate Battle Flag in square shape.

Simply anything that had been official at the level of state or confederate government was seen as a taboo emblem of a failed political movement. The Confederate Battle Flag connected as it was simply to the army under Robert E. Lee was seen as a viable and honourable symbol for the commemoration of those who died for their abortive nation's cause and in defence of their own homes.

a reply to: incoserv

The government wasn`t trying to enslave native americans they were trying to wipe every native American man woman and child off the face of the earth, basically a well planned and orchestrated campaign of genocide.

so, I wonder how many confederate flag banning hypocrites would support banning the American flag? If native americans are offended by the flag because it represents genocide to them then shouldn`t it be banned? or don`t native American lives and feelings matter?

originally posted by: dreamingawake
lol?

Lol at anyone claiming here or on other social media that this flag doesn't represent a segregationist political agenda right from the start, or that the flag was "hijacked". The more I learn about the Confederacy's history, the more I learn there is no reason to deny it was built on a racist ideology, and the more people refuting this surprise me.

The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails.

Alexander H. Stephens
Savannah, Georgia
March 21, 1861

There is no reason to be butthurt today by the things confederates did 150 years ago. Southerners today are not held accountable for this just like modern Germans are not called "nazis" by their neighbours.

But clinging to such symbols as the confederate flag on the other hand shows a nostalgia for an ideology from another time, like if Germans today were still nostalgic of the reich. It's quite normal people doing so are going to be criticized. Actually I find it healthy. It's the denial of the racist past of the Confederation that is unhealthy.



This site is about denying ignorance. In that case I expect people to deny the ignorance spread today by people nostalgic of a racist past, who claim that the confederate flag represents some kind of nebulous "Southern pride" and is in no way related to a segregationist and racist political project.



Honestly this debate shouldn't even exist. If people want to fly a racist flag home, fine for them. But to whine that some request such a flag removed from an official building, or that some companies want to put some distance between them and that past, that is misguided indignation.

There are better use for your disapprobation than to defend or minimize a racist past and its symbols.


Oh and please, for those who still see this as nothing but Liberals VS Conservatives, rise above that kind of BS, you are worth more than that.

originally posted by: Tardacus
If native americans are offended by the flag because it represents genocide to them then shouldn`t it be banned? or don`t native American lives and feelings matter?

If native americans ever say they are offended by the American flag, this should be discussed indeed.

The problem is that they aren't so basically this is a moot point used as a strawman by people who can't let go of a racist heritage of the past.

a reply to: JUhrman
The answer to the question reply that you LOL'ed at was to display the difference as to why people do not fly the Stainless Banner which was more known as a racist banner. The Confederate flag is the battle flag, does not have the white portion that represents supremacy.

People who see it as heritage do not discount the racist background of the Confederacy. And they do attribute it to their heritage and family's past with knowing about the history of the symbol.
As many know, of course, and highly denounce that the KKK, etc adopted the flag after the fact of it. In fact there have been rallies lately.
Plus, just as many Americans do not discount the racist past as whole on the American flag(Slavery, Natives to eugenics) when the flag is flown.

Honestly this debate shouldn't even exist. If people want to fly a racist flag home, fine for them. But to whine that some request such a flag removed from an official building, or that some companies want to put some distance between them and that past, that is misguided indignation.

You're right it should not exist. People's heritage representation(since that many are not racist) should not be badgered in such manner. But the Federal Government(ps this is on record in mainstream news in numerous places) had to go in and request the flags merchandise not be sold. Making an already hot topic of flag removal from the monument on state grounds to become more heated up.

Whining, no. The people offended by the removal have valid reasons to be feeling as such:

The flag flew over the Confederate monument on the grounds. Not the building. The outrage was that it was on the grounds. I guess then the whole monument should go to a museum along with the flag.

Because the Federal Government told businesses to discontinue selling the flag merchandise. They didn't do it to be PC or be patriotic to the cause of flag removal as a choice. In fact that's revenue loss. Especially if the major US flag manufacturers were also told to do this. This is shown with At least one source, in text reply to employees and an audio recording.

There are better use for your disapprobation than to defend or minimize a racist past and its symbols.

I believe any Southern American(or otherwise with family who relocated) has a right to honor their past with the flag. It DOES NOT make them a racist because of the use of the flag.

There are better use for your contrarian remarks than to defend or minimize what people rally around the flag only as racist.
See what I did there?

Oh and please, for those who still see this as nothing but Liberals VS Conservatives, rise above that kind of BS, you are worth more than that.

It's strongly part of it because of social issues that are being highlighted in politics, the media and social media. The flag, while talked of before the tragedy, has only been headline news, played upon politically since the event happened. Not sure how well you keep up with American politics but the right is strong on social issues with homosexuality and racism. You're saying it's not relevant in that term because it's only a real racism issue? Gotcha.

I would have far less of an issue with the flag if the people demanding it be taken down knew a damn thing about the Civil War. I'd bet the vast majority couldn't name more than 2 battles or even which states were Union, Confederate or neutral.
It hit me when the mayor of Memphis got on his high horse demanding the remove the grave of Nathan Bedford Forrest. Like most he probably got everything he knew about the man from a wiki page.

TV LAND PULLS ‘DUKES OF HAZZARD’ OFF THE AIR

www.breitbart.com...

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Flags don't hate people, people do.

Sadly, I am afraid this is just going to cause more hatred.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
I would have far less of an issue with the flag if the people demanding it be taken down knew a damn thing about the Civil War. I'd bet the vast majority couldn't name more than 2 battles or even which states were Union, Confederate or neutral.
It hit me when the mayor of Memphis got on his high horse demanding the remove the grave of Nathan Bedford Forrest. Like most he probably got everything he knew about the man from a wiki page.

THANK YOU!

I wish I could give you more than one star for that.

Especially the ones that think that the Civil War was about slavery. I'll wager good money that those people don't realize that Maryland, Delaware, Missouri, West Virginia, and Kentucky were slave states, in the Union, during the Civil War. Slavery was perfectly legal in those states before, during, and after the war. If the North was fighting to abolish slavery, they could have started within the Union.

People that think the "rebel flag" is a symbol of racism didn't get their information from a history book. Somebody told them that it was racist and they just believed it. If they would crack open a history book, they would realize that the Stars and Stripes is more of a symbol of slavery, racism, hatred, violence, and genocide than a flag that flew less than five years.

a reply to: JUhrman

Why would it have to be just native americans who were offended by it in order to ban it?
surely there are non black people who are offended by the confederate flag because it reminds them of that period in our history when slavery was legal. just as there are probably non native americans who are offended by the U.S. flag because they are reminded of that period in our history when genocide was the order of the day.