Confederate Flag Ban: At last after 150 years in the path for the civil rights fight?

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Oh don't get me wrong, this issue most undoubtedly won't go away forever. It will come RIGHT back to the forefront of national discussion the next time a racist white person commits a high profile hate crime, or even for random other reasons. I'm not arguing that. Just stating the inevitable outcome of this CURRENT discussion.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Oh don't get me wrong, this issue most undoubtedly won't go away forever. It will come RIGHT back to the forefront of national discussion the next time a racist white person commits a high profile hate crime, or even for random other reasons. I'm not arguing that. Just stating the inevitable outcome of this CURRENT discussion.

My point exactly its not really going away, it will keep on happening until there is some kind of major change or shift in the counsiousness of the people. As it looks people are polarizing and clinging more to thier racial ignorance. There would be no racial ignorance if people could see and feel that we were all one people.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I agree. It WILL keep popping up until it is fixed. I was just trying to alleviate the other poster's concerns about this issue snowballing like he was suggesting. I've already witnessed this EXACT conversation several times in my life. That flag on the capital building has been discussed MANY times within the last 50 years.

I guess we need to have the Africa flag image banned since they were the ones capturing and selling their own people to everyone else.

TPP and the Iran nuke deals are bigger issues, but lets focus on a dyed bit of linen on a stick.

originally posted by: EyesOpenMouthShut
I guess we need to have the Africa flag image banned since they were the ones capturing and selling their own people to everyone else.

TPP and the Iran nuke deals are bigger issues, but lets focus on a dyed bit of linen on a stick.

What on earth are you talking about ban the African flag?

The TPP is a real problem but another topic which has nothing to do with racism and banning the racist confederate flag.

a reply to: EyesOpenMouthShut

With all respect dear EyesOpenMouthShut,

Your comment about to try to blame Africa entirely for the slavery has recalled me a so interesting quote from the writings of Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, one extremely famous Mexican poet and humanist of the XVIII, a nun , that is considered one of the first feminists of History, that once wrote:

Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, from her poem You foolish men:

Who is more to blame,
though either should do wrong?
She who sins for pay
or he who pays to sin?

www.poets.org...

Perhaps it would be advisable that you consider to travel to Mexico to take a course in social studies or in how to judge correctly the guilt in Historic events, or must I say you , like once did Mr Adlai Stevenson in Dallas in October of 1963, "surely My dear Friend, I don't have to come here from Illinois to teach Texas manners, do I? ".

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Where did you see the part I posted that I blame them entirely?
Thats right, because I didn't.

I was pointing out the stupidity of the entire situation to which you react in the best worded display of arrogance one could hope for. . good job

a reply to: Krazysh0t

that is correct.

there was once a time when people weren't shouted down.

Its like media has an audience that it wields like a weapon against society, or at least the parts of society that it doesn't particularly agree with.

The result: the nation is brow beaten into bending to the will of the mouthpiece.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Bob Dylan said it best, "The times, they are a changing."

You can either keep up or be left behind.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: EyesOpenMouthShut
I guess we need to have the Africa flag image banned since they were the ones capturing and selling their own people to everyone else.

TPP and the Iran nuke deals are bigger issues, but lets focus on a dyed bit of linen on a stick.

What on earth are you talking about ban the African flag?

The TPP is a real problem but another topic which has nothing to do with racism and banning the racist confederate flag.

So wait...you're saying that black people should be upset with Africans because they sold them into slavery? But that doesn't work. There is no money in that, no way for Jackson and Sharpton to make a living and no reason to protest us evil white devils....when...ummm...it was actually evil black devils??? Next thing you're going to tell me is more black people kill black people than white people that kill black people.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Bob Dylan said it best, "The times, they are a changing."

You can either keep up or be left behind.

That one I'm going to have to take exception to. Change is not always for the best and in this case, I would at least say it is misguided. And as far as being left behind...if it is for your morals and your values, that may not be a bad thing. I would the the lemming that gets left behind is probably better off. I don't and won't agree that blaming a flag or a symbol for what people may believe or thing is stupid and ignores the problem while pretending addressing a symptom does any good. Erasing history or items from history are pointless. They should remain and the truth should be taught and discussed. Yes...today slavery is an evil thing and in hindsight it is also. At the time...different situation.

And just a thought for anyone out there (eg. not directed at you in particular)...would anyone hop into a time machine and go back and stop slavery? Would there be African Americans today? We would be a completely different country if someone changed that significant part of history. While I don't know the answer...would America be better or worse if our ancestors hadn't had slavery?

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
That one I'm going to have to take exception to. Change is not always for the best and in this case, I would at least say it is misguided. And as far as being left behind...if it is for your morals and your values, that may not be a bad thing. I would the the lemming that gets left behind is probably better off. I don't and won't agree that blaming a flag or a symbol for what people may believe or thing is stupid and ignores the problem while pretending addressing a symptom does any good. Erasing history or items from history are pointless. They should remain and the truth should be taught and discussed. Yes...today slavery is an evil thing and in hindsight it is also. At the time...different situation.

All this is saying is that you are admitting that we make mistakes at times. Well eventually we as a people learn from our mistakes and hopefully fix them. I'd view the taking down of the Confederate Flag from a state building as acknowledging and fixing one of those mistakes.

None of this means that you can't fight change or that we should fear change though.

And just a thought for anyone out there (eg. not directed at you in particular)...would anyone hop into a time machine and go back and stop slavery? Would there be African Americans today? We would be a completely different country if someone changed that significant part of history. While I don't know the answer...would America be better or worse if our ancestors hadn't had slavery?

To be honest, I'm not sure I would want to change anything about history. Part of being human is correcting your mistakes. If we redo all of our mistakes, we'd never learn anything as a species.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
That one I'm going to have to take exception to. Change is not always for the best and in this case, I would at least say it is misguided. And as far as being left behind...if it is for your morals and your values, that may not be a bad thing. I would the the lemming that gets left behind is probably better off. I don't and won't agree that blaming a flag or a symbol for what people may believe or thing is stupid and ignores the problem while pretending addressing a symptom does any good. Erasing history or items from history are pointless. They should remain and the truth should be taught and discussed. Yes...today slavery is an evil thing and in hindsight it is also. At the time...different situation.

All this is saying is that you are admitting that we make mistakes at times. Well eventually we as a people learn from our mistakes and hopefully fix them. I'd view the taking down of the Confederate Flag from a state building as acknowledging and fixing one of those mistakes.

None of this means that you can't fight change or that we should fear change though.

And just a thought for anyone out there (eg. not directed at you in particular)...would anyone hop into a time machine and go back and stop slavery? Would there be African Americans today? We would be a completely different country if someone changed that significant part of history. While I don't know the answer...would America be better or worse if our ancestors hadn't had slavery?

To be honest, I'm not sure I would want to change anything about history. Part of being human is correcting your mistakes. If we redo all of our mistakes, we'd never learn anything as a species.

Agreed! And I would suggest that instead of banning such things which will do nothing but create a martyr of the item, that we address the actual problem. If we look at what sparked this...that would be insanity and a murderer with a gun. As I stated in another thread, if it hadn't been black people in a church, it may have been white people in a post office. This person should never have had access to a gun and should have be diagnosed as a nut case and given some help. In fact, we would solve a bunch of problems if we addressed mental illness better. Again...the problem, not the symptom.

I don't believe for a second that this was simply a racist. It takes a certain level of mental problems to commit such a crime. Unless you believe in evil.

PS: Small but important correction. Taking down the flag on government buildings is the right choice. Banning it in other places I would say is not. Apple, for example is pulling Civil War games from their store.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

I'm not trying to get the flag banned either. I just don't think it is appropriate to be flown on the state house. This isn't a new opinion of mine thanks to this event either. I've had this opinion since about 2000 when I first heard about this controversy on the SC capital building.

As for Roof, he may be mentally ill, but to ignore the racist implications of his actions is to ignore a HUGE bulk of the problem. His racism played a direct role in choosing his target. Everything about his plan was well crafted to send the biggest message. Look at the location, the oldest black church South of Baltimore with TONS of Civil Rights history, all black people, a black Senator. You just can't pretend that mental illness was the chief cause of this issue when it was CLEARLY about racism as well.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

I'm not trying to get the flag banned either. I just don't think it is appropriate to be flown on the state house. This isn't a new opinion of mine thanks to this event either. I've had this opinion since about 2000 when I first heard about this controversy on the SC capital building.

As for Roof, he may be mentally ill, but to ignore the racist implications of his actions is to ignore a HUGE bulk of the problem. His racism played a direct role in choosing his target. Everything about his plan was well crafted to send the biggest message. Look at the location, the oldest black church South of Baltimore with TONS of Civil Rights history, all black people, a black Senator. You just can't pretend that mental illness was the chief cause of this issue when it was CLEARLY about racism as well.

I agree with you on the government buildings not flying that flag. On the mental illness...we can't blame the aliens that the postal shooter claims told him to shoot up the place or the dog that told the serial killer to kill. My guess is there is more mental illness that created the killer and racism that provided the target...that could have easily been anyone else also.

But that is just my opinion. What REALLY has me curious is why he was in the church for so long. What was he thinking and doing? From what I've heard, it almost sounds like he was fitting in for an hour before he went off. As much as I wish this didn't happen...I'm extremely anxious to hear what went on inside that church.

originally posted by: The angel of light
The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear Readers,

We all have seen when an era of Tyranny ends in History, how the symbols of it are for ever banned or even destroyed.

That happened at the siege of Berlin in 1945 in the ending the Third Reich in Germany, when all the Swastikas were removed from public buildings or destroyed, or when the Red flag of the Soviet union was removed from the Kremlin in 1991, and many giant monuments to Lenin, Marx and Stalin were removed from public spaces, as well as when the Berlin wall was demolished in 1990 by the crowds, or when the infamous Francoist Eagle was removed from Spain Flag in 1977 or the Stalinist Coat of Arms from the Romanian one in 1989.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Well, perhaps this can be surprising by many but it seems that the moment to turn its back to a horrible page of the national past definitively has arrived for America, that for what we are seeing it looks is ready to decide to move a so dark page of History for ever and in a definitive closure of the long fight against Slavery, discrimination, harassment of minorities , of segregation of all kind.

www.msnbc.com...

This week a genocide in a Church in South Carolina, by a fanatic racist, triggered the debate for the definitive ending of the use of a flag that symbolizes certainly a regional identity, as well as the worst tyranny ever existed in America: The Slavery and discrimination supported in racial supremacy.

If this political momentum prevails it took 150 years since the civil war to understand that the Confederate flag does not have anymore place in the public life of America. Ironically it was precisely in South Carolina on December 24, 1860 that this flag started be used as a symbol of secession to support racial supremacy.

www.nytimes.com...

The confederate flag has been in use commonly in public buildings as a symbol of Southern pride, it is even part of the flags of various States of the South, and it was curiously present among the people that was in the Dallas Airport on the infamous November 22nd of 1963 when President John F. Kennedy arrived to his date with death.

www.youtube.com...

This flag was used not only a symbol of cultural identity for an entire region of the country but also by the extreme right wing in the 1960s, as it was for instance in Dallas just few weeks before of the day in which America lost its innocence, during the tremendous humiliation to the US ambassador in UN Mr. Al Stevenson when he was attacked by fanatic crooks trying to boycott a public event organized to support Kennedy reelection.

www.youtube.com...

What ever happened with this flag, anyway this week we are witnessed a Historic occasion when the second American Revolution, the one of the civil rights we are living, has moved a Southern governor, of the State where the civil war began, to request the definitive ban of this flag and even changed the mentality of who profited a lot of to maintain alive these symbols of hatred and segregation.

www.nytimes.com...

Of course if this change finally become reality it would not arrive without needing a last and ultimate battle to remove for ever the symbolism that was behind segregation in the country, since there are sectors that resist it , and have decided to conspire against a change that now appears as unavoidable , in the name of a southern cultural identity, that they claim needs to use these kind of symbols, to maintain a cultural control over the population.

The League of the South, for instance, which is pushing for secession, is also planning a protest in Columbia this weekend, though it has not announced details.

www.nbcnews.com...

at 52 Years of Kennedy Assassination it is difficult to avoid to think in his so famous Secret societies speech while listening these fundamentalist leaders, or can we also say sectarianism advocates, that are accused to be secessionists by some, to try to defend their right to continue using their beloved symbols.

www.youtube.com...

This thread of course is open for the free discussion of this Historic moment in the American life, naturally within the boundaries of the
norms of decorum and mutual respect in the replies.

What do you think? is America ready to bury for ever the Confederate flag, as symbol of hatred or segregation, giving a definitive Yes to the Civil rights National identity over a culture of regionalism that resist to disappear or Not?

Thanks for your attention,

the Angel of Lightness

Holy hyperbole, batman....Do you HONESTLY believe this crap?

a reply to: Daedalus

Of course I believe in the weight of the reasons for which this decision was taken.

Now, What it is relevant here is that if this might not be the case why the State of South Carolina finally decided to ban the Confederate flag? That was 4 days ago by the way.


www.wsj.com...

sports.yahoo.com...


And let me update you, since this is also happening in other southern states, like Alabama:

www.breitbart.com...


I think it is a little late to try to enter in a debate that is right now closed, since at this point the decision became Law, and it is clear that there is no way to go back anymore. The flag is going to be since now a piece of museum referring to one of the most sad moments of the History of America, and the symbol of a wrong cause.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

More hyperbole, and a gross misunderstanding of history. Your ignorance is astounding.

This is nothing more than yet another case of absolutely mental "social justice" ideologues bullying folks into changing things that they don't personally like. Things like this are why "political correctness", and "social justice" are so toxic, and outright awful...they are ruining society.

a reply to: Daedalus

Ruining Society? that is an interesting statement, why you don't describe to us just to lecture on what is a nice society what are your ideas openly, Please describe to us what is your ideal Society? I am really curious on your wisdom.

Your reply is a combination of cowardliness and boldness, two things that not everybody is able to combine adequately.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness