First school in nation to offer LGBT Studies Course --- why?

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body.

Can I ask why they'd need that when the student body does not exist in isolation, even in a place like San Francisco? The views outside of their comfort zone in greater American society fill a lot of space, air time and dominate the conversation and cultural narrative already because are the majority held views. I think that might be the point you are missing.

It's not equivalent.

It's impossible to miss those views growing up different in some way!

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body.

Can I ask why they'd need that when the student body does not exist in isolation, even in a place like San Francisco? The views outside of their comfort zone in greater American society fill a lot of space, air time and dominate the conversation and cultural narrative already because are the majority held views. I think that might be the point you are missing.

It's not equivalent.

It's impossible to miss those views growing up different in some way!

So, by the same logic, they really don't need a GLBT class either.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
If it was really about educating about different it would not be about a group that is already accepted. It'd be about gun ownership or Reaganomics--that would really be educating the students about people different than them.

Yeah and we can see how open THOSE people are towards Gay issues. "I'll take my kids out and home school them...." So it's a one way street. It doesn't work that way. Besides, why do we teach history? If we're white, say, that means we already know what we have experienced in the past? No, thus it's taught.

So if other people refuse to teach "diversity" that is an excuse to not teach "diversity" all the whole time crowing about diversity? That does not make a lot of sense.

The excuses sound like Bill Clinton's "I tried Marijuana but I didn't inhale." False. Dishonest. And, frankly, unbelievable.

I'd much more respect an honest answer of "so they support GLBT, deal with it" than this disingenuous nonsense about "diversity" and "tolerance."

If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "diversity" gay is already a thing there.
If a largely gay supportive school has a class on being gay, it's not about "tolerance" it is already tolerated.

Honestly it's about supporting something they already agree on and it's an echo chamber for their views and they don't want any dissention.

Honestly--which yearbook photo is more likely to be published at that school: a guy kissing his boyfriend at prom or a guy wearing an NRA hat?

And you know what, at 99% of the schools in this country, gays are WAY more persecuted, bullied, ostracized, than the other way around. Sorry, any other view is totally out there.

At any other school, especially outside of liberal areas, even the gays usually keep under the radar, including NOT going to prom with a guy or kissing a guy or god forbid, doing so in a yearbook picture.

And again, at a vast majority of the high schools across the country, both the studies AND culture are very hetero-normative, not the other way around. So why does it bother you that a school has it flipped around a bit (which I even doubt that. It's probably equalized now). Given everything I said is true about the majority of schools being "straight-privileged," what is it within you that is so bothered by a single class at some random high school that isn't?

So lack of diversity and prejudice at other schools justify it in this school. Got it. That's fine. Just be honest about it not really being about "diversity" and "tolerance."

But how do you know? From my experience of 25 years living in CA, California has ALWAYS been at the forefront of diversity education and diversity itself. CA and NY are the most diverse states in the union!

They teach a wide range of subjects, and I bet given the high-end nature of the school, it's a class-A education all around. Why do you assume it is some kind of dearth of information about various diverse things.

In my experience, liberal schools teach WAY more about a range of topics and cultures across the world. A conservative group will only want to teach about their culture and religion, whereas a progressive one will have kids studying history and religions from all over the world. These are just a few examples.

And if you are honest with yourself, you KNOW this is true about hyper conservatives.

Because liberal "diversity" is just as or even more narrow minded than so called "hyper conservatives." Heck we can see it in your own language and the labels you use. Those who scream about tolerance the most, tend to be the least tolerant just like those who complain about gays the most tend to have a bit of gay in them.

Then why do conservatives historically only want Christian education in schools? No Hindu or Buddhist? Why do conservatives often WAIL agains that shift away from a Euro-centric literature and history education, as it was in the past. Why is it the progressives who are the opposite.

On average.

But seriously, that is real in the education debates.

Why do liberals reject anything against global warming in schools? Gun classes/hunters safety classes? Free market economics? Reaganomics?

I'm not saying that some conservative are not against diversity--I'm just pointing out that many liberals also reject true diversity.

Do you realize how childish that sounds? And wrong. I pointed out a few pages back about this school's economics program. It's extensive.

"Childish?" I don't recall belittling or insulting you in any way. One would hope that a moderator could have a discussion with out resorting to name calling.

You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body. In a gay friendly performing arts school in San Francisco, a class on GLBT issues is hardly outside their experience or comfort zone.

Be honest--say they are having the class to help them feel good about themselves.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is the point that you are missing, and one I didn't get when I was in high school. A lot of Americans don't get. I will use a series of examples to demonstrate:

1) Why do we have Black History Month but not White History Month: Because for several hundred years our education and media overly represented white and European perspectives, and less so minority perspectives. It's only to highlight other important histories and perspectives.

2) Why do we now teach non-Western history or literature courses instead of just the European classics my father studied!? Because again, our education and media are still very Euro-centric, and hence a true education requires broadening to other cultures.

3) Why would it be good to have an LGBT course at a high school like this? Because the vast majority of media, movies, education, textbooks, novels, etc, are HETERO-NORMATIVE. There is absolutely no shortage of hetero-normative perspectives in the US. Most LGBT students, ESPECIALLY before college or after K-12, never get courses "in their comfort zone." They get the opposite and usually the opposite treatment. When I was in high school, in the SF Bay Area, LGBT was definitely still persecuted, made fun of, in the closet for the most part, etc. Therefore, your logic fails.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body. In a gay friendly performing arts school in San Francisco, a class on GLBT issues is hardly outside their experience or comfort zone.

Be honest--say they are having the class to help them feel good about themselves.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is the point that you are missing, and one I didn't get when I was in high school. A lot of Americans don't get. I will use a series of examples to demonstrate:

1) Why do we have Black History Month but not White History Month: Because for several hundred years our education and media overly represent white and European perspectives, and less so minority perspectives. It's only to highlight other important histories and perspectives.

2) Why do we now teach non-Western history or literature courses instead of just the European classics my father studied!? Because again, our education and media are still very Euro-centric, and hence a true education requires broadening to other cultures.

3) Why would it be good to have an LGBT course at a high school like this? Because the vast majority of media, movies, education, textbooks, novels, etc, are HETERO-NORMATIVE. There is absolutely no shortage of hetero-normative perspectives in the US. Most LGBT students, ESPECIALLY before college or after K-12, never get courses "in their comfort zone." They get the opposite and usually the opposite treatment. When I was in high school, in the SF Bay Area, LGBT was definitely still persecuted, made fun of, in the closet for the most part, etc. Therefore, your logic fails.

LOL. Okay, okay. You win.

Happy?

There is absolutely zero pandering and its just "diversity." Gotcha.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body.

Can I ask why they'd need that when the student body does not exist in isolation, even in a place like San Francisco? The views outside of their comfort zone in greater American society fill a lot of space, air time and dominate the conversation and cultural narrative already because are the majority held views. I think that might be the point you are missing.

It's not equivalent.

It's impossible to miss those views growing up different in some way!

So, by the same logic, they really don't need a GLBT class either.

Dude, you aren't bothered by the myriad other random electives, such as ceramics or some random extra music class/theatre/history.

So let's be honest, this really just bothers you due to some kind of fear and disgust of the LGBT community. Look within yourself. There is no reason a single course being offered at a high end high school should bother you that much, other than homophobia. We could make a list of other electives and courses across the country, by category, and probably LGBT would be one of the LEAST represented across K-12 systems in our country. You are acting as if it is becoming some kind of threat or over-representation, and other electives aren't being represented.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body. In a gay friendly performing arts school in San Francisco, a class on GLBT issues is hardly outside their experience or comfort zone.

Be honest--say they are having the class to help them feel good about themselves.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is the point that you are missing, and one I didn't get when I was in high school. A lot of Americans don't get. I will use a series of examples to demonstrate:

1) Why do we have Black History Month but not White History Month: Because for several hundred years our education and media overly represent white and European perspectives, and less so minority perspectives. It's only to highlight other important histories and perspectives.

2) Why do we now teach non-Western history or literature courses instead of just the European classics my father studied!? Because again, our education and media are still very Euro-centric, and hence a true education requires broadening to other cultures.

3) Why would it be good to have an LGBT course at a high school like this? Because the vast majority of media, movies, education, textbooks, novels, etc, are HETERO-NORMATIVE. There is absolutely no shortage of hetero-normative perspectives in the US. Most LGBT students, ESPECIALLY before college or after K-12, never get courses "in their comfort zone." They get the opposite and usually the opposite treatment. When I was in high school, in the SF Bay Area, LGBT was definitely still persecuted, made fun of, in the closet for the most part, etc. Therefore, your logic fails.

LOL. Okay, okay. You win.

Happy?

There is absolutely zero pandering and its just "diversity." Gotcha.

______________________

Your attitude is the same as the people who say "It's fine that there are Gay people but I don't want to see it in public." You now accept they exist but don't want them to have any kind of representation in public.

Public includes schools, courses, movies, books, etc. So by being against this school, which has a lot of LGBT people, being able to investigate their own histories as well as raise awareness, you are following the same second-class citizen maxim:

"It's okay that there is a gay community in SF but I draw the line at allowing them to have courses about LGBT in their community, like straight people do with their history. Not in public or schools!!!"

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body.

Can I ask why they'd need that when the student body does not exist in isolation, even in a place like San Francisco? The views outside of their comfort zone in greater American society fill a lot of space, air time and dominate the conversation and cultural narrative already because are the majority held views. I think that might be the point you are missing.

It's not equivalent.

It's impossible to miss those views growing up different in some way!

So, by the same logic, they really don't need a GLBT class either.

Dude, you aren't bothered by the myriad other random electives, such as ceramics or some random extra music class/theatre/history.

So let's be honest, this really just bothers you due to some kind of fear and disgust of the LGBT community. Look within yourself. There is no reason a single course being offered at a high end high school should bother you that much, other than homophobia. We could make a list of other electives and courses across the country, by category, and probably LGBT would be one of the LEAST represented across K-12 systems in our country. You are acting as if it is becoming some kind of threat or over-representation, and other electives aren't being represented.

Why project that on me? I said nothing of the sort and I've been nothing but polite to you so why do you feel the need to besmirch me?

What I observed and opined was that it was not really about diversity as the student body in that school was largely already hip to GLBT.

I said the class was perfectly fine, just that I thought it disingenuous to couch it in terms of "diversity."

Just like the right likes to justify anything in the name of "Jeebus", the left likes to justify anything in the name of "diversity" with diversity really meaning only stuff that they already agree with.

And you contradict yourself. You once said it was about "diversity" and "Critical thinking" but now you say that it is about the GLBT students learning about their own past and "culture." Which is it?

originally posted by: Metallicus

28% of this school's children identify as LGBTQ.

This kind of ridiculous number gives statistics a bad name. This is why no one should pay attention to polls or collected 'data' on humans and their beliefs. Stupid and ridiculous, but like you said it is San Francisco.

Even I don't believe it's 28%.

You can't really ask a bunch of high school kids about sexual identity and get a straight answer, they are all just figuring that stuff out.

This course sounds silly.

~Tenth

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body.

Can I ask why they'd need that when the student body does not exist in isolation, even in a place like San Francisco? The views outside of their comfort zone in greater American society fill a lot of space, air time and dominate the conversation and cultural narrative already because are the majority held views. I think that might be the point you are missing.

It's not equivalent.

It's impossible to miss those views growing up different in some way!

So, by the same logic, they really don't need a GLBT class either.

Because they live in San Francisco and will always live and work in San Francisco? or Because history is irrelevant?

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14


You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body. In a gay friendly performing arts school in San Francisco, a class on GLBT issues is hardly outside their experience or comfort zone.

Be honest--say they are having the class to help them feel good about themselves.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is the point that you are missing, and one I didn't get when I was in high school. A lot of Americans don't get. I will use a series of examples to demonstrate:

1) Why do we have Black History Month but not White History Month: Because for several hundred years our education and media overly represented white and European perspectives, and less so minority perspectives. It's only to highlight other important histories and perspectives.

2) Why do we now teach non-Western history or literature courses instead of just the European classics my father studied!? Because again, our education and media are still very Euro-centric, and hence a true education requires broadening to other cultures.

3) Why would it be good to have an LGBT course at a high school like this? Because the vast majority of media, movies, education, textbooks, novels, etc, are HETERO-NORMATIVE. There is absolutely no shortage of hetero-normative perspectives in the US. Most LGBT students, ESPECIALLY before college or after K-12, never get courses "in their comfort zone." They get the opposite and usually the opposite treatment. When I was in high school, in the SF Bay Area, LGBT was definitely still persecuted, made fun of, in the closet for the most part, etc. Therefore, your logic fails.

And I can add a more recent example. I am not -that- far removed from high school and going to high school in a progressive liberal area as is much of Western Washington and Seattle does not mean that I wasn't picked on because i was "the trans girl".

Just because on balance an area like San Francisco or Seattle is -generally- more accepting of difference as compared to the overall average for the country doesn't mean they are some bigot free utopias.

It just means you're less likely to encounter such bigotry -OR- such bigots keep their views to themselves in those areas.

Another factor no one brought up is who says all the kids in this school were born and raised in the Bay Area anyway? People and their parents sometimes do move. Especially in California.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You entirely miss the point. You are focusing on the examples rather than the overall point I'm trying to make. If the true goal of the elective is to promote "diversity" and thinking "outside their comfort zone" then they would or should do electives that are outside the experience and comfort zone of the student body.

Can I ask why they'd need that when the student body does not exist in isolation, even in a place like San Francisco? The views outside of their comfort zone in greater American society fill a lot of space, air time and dominate the conversation and cultural narrative already because are the majority held views. I think that might be the point you are missing.

It's not equivalent.

It's impossible to miss those views growing up different in some way!

So, by the same logic, they really don't need a GLBT class either.

Dude, you aren't bothered by the myriad other random electives, such as ceramics or some random extra music class/theatre/history.

So let's be honest, this really just bothers you due to some kind of fear and disgust of the LGBT community. Look within yourself. There is no reason a single course being offered at a high end high school should bother you that much, other than homophobia. We could make a list of other electives and courses across the country, by category, and probably LGBT would be one of the LEAST represented across K-12 systems in our country. You are acting as if it is becoming some kind of threat or over-representation, and other electives aren't being represented.

Why project that on me? I said nothing of the sort and I've been nothing but polite to you so why do you feel the need to besmirch me?

What I observed and opined was that it was not really about diversity as the student body in that school was largely already hip to GLBT.

I said the class was perfectly fine, just that I thought it disingenuous to couch it in terms of "diversity."

Just like the right likes to justify anything in the name of "Jeebus", the left likes to justify anything in the name of "diversity" with diversity really meaning only stuff that they already agree with.

And you contradict yourself. You once said it was about "diversity" and "Critical thinking" but now you say that it is about the GLBT students learning about their own past and "culture." Which is it?

Which is it?

Both.


Do you understand what a diverse history is? That too is diversity and that's what this course falls under.

You are playing semantics, while not really having any kind of substantial point to make.

It fulfills all of those aims, not a single one. Stop trying to find minutea to support an anti-LGBT and anti-liberal narrative.

You didn't need to say overtly that LGBT fundamentally bothers you. It's clear based on the fact that this is the only LGBT focused course in high school that we know of.

That alone should clear up your mind about whether it's a good idea or not. There is an under-representation of LGBT voices in K-12, not equal nor over-representation. So it serves as both a progressive symbol of hearing such voices AND because such topics are under-represented, it DOES serve diversity aims. Boom. Done. Thanks.

a reply to: JadeStar

I would so participate!.. as a younger member too (23) i don't know if i would be the best to start it also.

i agree though, i think there are people who are interested and have questions but don't want to offend people, or who also want to learn and discuss the Culture and History of the GLBTQ and it's fights for civility and rights.. i think by us sharing our stories and experiences with people it might give them a chance to see the humility behind our passion.

I had to understand everything about myself alone, i not only had to come out as Gay, but also later as Genderfluid.. we can all learn from each other..

which brings up the point of a GLBTQ study course, i think it would give people a chance to study the history, the culture and the alphabet umbrella to understand the various meanings and a look outside the Binary.. how can that be a bad thing? to gain knowledge and hopefully some compassion

Is the issue with this because it is in high school? Is it because your tax dollars are going to fund an elective social and cultural studies class on something that makes you uncomfortable? For those so concerned about all the poor childrens, have you taken a look at what clubs and activities are available in your own local neighborhood high schools? I just hit Google and four out of the six schools I randomly looked at have a Gay-Straight Alliance club or something along those lines.

Are you down there with signs or writing your school boards about these extracurricular social clubs? I would certainly be more up in arms about them than a social studies class on LGBT* history and issues. I mean the woodworking club gets together and makes sawdust, the hockey club gets together and plays hockey, etc. What does the Gay-Straight Alliance club get together and do? OH THE OUTRAGE!

Seriously folks, there's nothing to see here except all ready high achieving kids with open minds and the desire to learn about everything especially if it happens to pertains to local culture and heritage.

So when your 18 year old goes off to college does everything become okay? Caution, your head might explode but have a look at the Institute for LGBT studies at the University of Arizona. Link to UofA This is in good ol' right wing, conservative, republican Arizona, mind you.

I would truly like to see some of the hard line attitudes about all the LGBT** stuff ease up a bit and maybe JadeStar has the right idea about us Alphabet People coordinating a friendly get to know us, ask us anything post to show we're just people, neighbors, co-workers, friends and family and not a bunch of monsters out to molest or convert your children.

Jeez.

originally posted by: EKron
I would truly like to see some of the hard line attitudes about all the LGBT** stuff ease up a bit and maybe JadeStar has the right idea about us Alphabet People coordinating a friendly get to know us, ask us anything post to show we're just people, neighbors, co-workers, friends and family and not a bunch of monsters out to molest or convert your children.

Jeez.

Ok so it looks like there are three of us willing to do this? Any others?

Also, is there a senior ATS member (or maybe even a mod) who is either LGBTIQGF who might want to start such a "We are the Gay, Lesbians, Bisexual, Transgender/Transsexual, Intersexed, Queer and Genderfluid people of ATS, Ask us anything" type AMA?

Seeing how it is pride week/month I feel that now would be a great time since with the higher visibility this time entails might raise questions or ire among those who would be best served by such an open, honest, educational give-and-take thread.

Hey 'Tenth! What say ye? Wanna set something up and come play with us lettered kids?

Doing it for Pride Week is a grand idea! I'm sure we could get TrappedPrincess and Cuervo on the panel too and more L's and G's to round things out?

Uh oh! Now we do have an an agenda! I have to admit though I didn't know it was pride week. JadeStar is the smartest, I'm just the oldest and that's my excuse.

'Bout time I start to contribute more. I might even add an avatar after eight years?

►eKay◄

a reply to: EKron



I started a Pride week topic at the beginning of the month, it was more a Welcome me back happy pride, lets talk about pride and your experiences... not many participants

Naw, not really a pride thing, the idea is more of an information - ask me anything type thing. Sort of an organized place where we can share a bit to maybe raise the level of understanding and for people to learn that we are human beings too. These gay and trans* threads have been downright ugly at times and while we probably won't change any of the hardliner's minds, maybe if we all just communicate in a friendly way, some of the attitudes will lighten up?

There have been several threads recently where JadeStar has eloquently offered up some fantastic information and very personal stories of her life in hopes of helping others to learn the journey and issues of "girls born different" and the problems faced by transsexual youth. I even offered my story which is very similar but different since I was a kid in the 60"s like her in less enlightened times. I have walked the same path but that was over forty years ago.

The thing is, all of this is spread out in three of four long threads and having a place to consolidate it with other ATS members of letters participating as a panel could provide a central resource that may help the understanding that we're really just like everyone else and maybe help a few folks mellow out in the process. One would hope anyway?

-edited to add-
One example I could cite might be the magic letters LGBTQ or whatever they are this week? Some people seem to think we're all on the same page, agree on everything and get the same rainbow emblazoned global takeover agenda pamphlet in our mailboxes monthly. There are communities within communities and subgroups within groups that have rallied together for common cause. We aren't all one big mob out to ruin society. We're your neighbors, doctors, bus drivers, teachers, brothers, sisters and parents and part of the same planet and humankind as everyman. Being able to demonstrate the diversity of who we even within our own "community" might help to break down some of the stereotypes and rhetoric and maybe even help people to not be haters? I'd give it a shot.

►eKay◄ (my new friendly name!)

a reply to: EKron

I agree, up above i said i would be a participant.. being a young male (23) Gay, Genderfluid and having my backstory of parental Abuse homelessness Etc i would love to share and help others learn about everyone, and also learn from each others...