I filmed the massive 250,000 people protest in London yesterday

originally posted by: JeanPaul
The right wing is so predicable. They will carry on about how low the attendance "actually" was while also denying the cause/effect of austerity. The old Thatcher/Reagan propaganda worked very well to con millions into thinking massive corporations and financial institutions represent the best interests of working people. Silly silly right wingers, oh how you have sold out your fellow man at the alter of a failing ideology. The thing is, your bad ideas are chained to the rest of us. This fawning sycophantic support for "free market" dogma...for slashing public services and support for a perpetual war waged on the working class.

You have been conned into believing you're rich. Conned into thinking the top .01%'s interests align with your own. You are the problem. Just as much as any economists or politicians. Your support makes all this possible. Pat yourselves on the back for a job well done. You've made dependable lackeys. Next you will shift the blame to "immigrants". Very very predicable.

I am quoting this comment simply to reiterate it, as it is by far the best comment in this thread.

a reply to: TechUnique

This is proof positive the world is doomed. 250,000 people rally for free government hand-outs, whether funded by debt or not. How many in the UK rallied for basic human rights? 250 rally for basic freedom and rights? That is absolutely, positively, yet another doomsday bell for the world. This is not sane, not rational, and NOT civilized.

Spending money you don't have is irresponsible. The British have among the highest debt loads in the world. So, common sense says spending, by the simple and unavoidable laws of addition and subtraction, must, must, must come down. To rally for the spending not to come down is not even slightly rational. But, as the saying goes, the screaming banshees get the banana. Even if they never worked a single second for it, and it came from another person who was threatened by the IRS (I believe you Brits have an organization named "IRS" too).

Its also irresponsible to accumulate debts simply to pay bills. Debts by organizations are supposed to be for capital investment purposes only. And debts by large organizations can be foregone entirely without serious consequences. There is no shame in being funded solely by revenues and zero debts. The UK is adding on debts to finance government hand-outs and universal health care.

Government workers pensions should be the FIRST to go. They defiled and destroyed the finances of the UK, so they should deal with the consequences. But yet, the rally was not to cut government pensions, but rather it was for free government money. No. Wrong. And two wrongs don't make a right!

originally posted by: Kandinsky

Dear God, man!! Is that it? We should carry the poor instead of taking the Government to task for making them poor?!

Every superstore in the country has foodbanks and that's never happened in my life. We already do our bit and it's about time the f******s that created the circumstances put their hands in their own bottomless pockets.

You work with the tools you have, if you can get 1-2+ million people out on the streets for several days then by all means try protesting but with only 250k your not taking the government to task, your wasting your time.

My objection is that its a bad strategy.

originally posted by: TheJourney

'I accept peaceful protest, but violence is unacceptable!'
'Praceful protest is pointless.'
...just sit back and accept whatever the government does...
Ah, freedom and democracy

God no, don't sit back and accept anything the government does that you don't like, go out into the world, lead by example and makes some changes. Just don't mistake some token protest that the government has probably already forgotten about for achieving something.

a reply to: wayforward

It's absolutely mind boggling how people think getting something for nothing benefits people! The only thing it creates is massive complacency and only reinforces the entitlement mentality.

People should quite getting **ssed off of how rich the rich are getting and trying to find ways to take that money, that those Rich earned mind you, for themselves and start supporting the little guy. We need to pay a little more and support the mom and pop locals and small businesses. Enjoy quality and not quantity like we used too. If you want to hurt the rich, lose your greed of wanting more for less and live within your means, support the small guy and watch the box stores shrink and the middle class grow!

However, that is only a dream as we are a society of greed and we want what others have and we we'll be damned if we let the rich get richer and have their Iphone 6's. We want what they have, regardless how hard we work.

I'm loving seeing the social divide spread to ATS, it's hilarious.

The GFC had a trickle down affect too people-the mistakes of the uber rich affected everyone else under them.

People who are quick to wag their fingers at those get something for nothing; but what about those failed banks who got something for a cock up of their own doing? that was your money they squandered, and that was your jobs that were lost because some idiots had more money than sense.

People have to work another decade to make up the amount of retirement funds they lost during the GFC, and there are many people who should be p!$$ed. There is good reason to blame those at the higher levels because they think it's their economy, not our economy.

I don't want anything for nothing. As somebody who pays half of my earnings in income tax and most of the rest on other taxes in one of the most highly taxed countries on the planet and having lost numerous immediate family members and ancestors to wars that were supposedly for our benefit; I expect decent healthcare for myself and my kids, I expect them to be able to get a decent education and have the same opportunities I did, I expect to not have to turn on my tv and see the people robbing us all blind smiling and treating us with disdain and contempt while they milk the last few scraps out of everyone to perpetuate their own lifestyle before it all implodes. I expect the police to have the resources available to do their jobs and for justice to apply to everybody, not just those who were born connected.

I expect ministers to actually pay to travel to work the same as I do, to buy food with their money the same as I do, to pay their rent with their own money and buy their houses with their own money like I do, I expect them to not be paid extra simply for turning up to the office, I expect them to earn their payrises the same as everybody else in the country. I expect them to treat the people who work their arses off to be treated with some respect and dignity. I expect my kids to be able to get a pension when at the end of their working life this country decides it no longer has a use for them.

That is why I support every one of those people protesting, whether they work or claim benefits makes no difference to me, their political affiliations and ideologies, race and economic status makes no difference to me either. They nearly all have ancestors who either died for this country or were exploited by this country and like them, I am sick of this.. Of all of it, and if it doesn't end with peaceful protests then I will be right there with them when they finally tear this whole system down brick by brick because I would rather see it all burn to the ground than continue. I am not going to comply anymore or be party to it.

originally posted by: rabbitpinch
a reply to: TechUnique

It didn't work.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...

The day after a quarter of a million people marched in London against austerity, the government has confirmed it will cut £12 billion in welfare.

Mine you, 2 million marched to stop the iraq war and that didn't work either.
Seems shouting in the streets and waving signs doesn't work.
So what now?

the wealthy are only afraid of losing 2 things...their money is one of them....no matter if 2 hundred, or 20 million march, it's just another peaceful protest by the serfs

Austerity is what happens when a country is *gasp* forced to live within its means. A country cannot run trade deficits indefinitely without serious economic implications. All this silly maneuvering with bailouts, quantitative easing, etc. are ways for politicians to distract the population from hard economic mathematics. Something must give, it always does. All fiat currencies eventually crumble due to political corruption. Promise people the world and you will win an election. Just look at this board - it's pretty clear that most people here would vote for a politician who promises them spoils from another's bank account. It can't work long-term. The solution *always* involves devaluing currency in order to preserve government continuity. In other words, we all take it in the pooper while TPTB line their nest with our money. On the other hand, I have to sit back and chuckle about it - we get the government we deserve.

one other thing...anarchy is not the answer. it's a different world today then in previous times. the wealthy have jets that can take them anywhere in the world at the first sign of trouble. they have already taken steps for this very scenario and are well-prepared. the wealthy can buy remote landing strips, on small ocean islands far away from any continent. couple that with fortified entrenchments that come with their own private armies, away from the destruction and chaos, and they can sit out any collapse, and travel to the "best available" when the dust settles.

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015
I don't want anything for nothing. As somebody who pays half of my earnings in income tax and most of the rest on other taxes in one of the most highly taxed countries on the planet and having lost numerous immediate family members and ancestors to wars that were supposedly for our benefit; I expect decent healthcare for myself and my kids,

So do I, hence I work hard and sacrifice some luxuries to ensure my family has the best access to healthcare. I also think it's a persons responsibility to ensure that they or their family is covered.

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015I expect them to be able to get a decent education and have the same opportunities I did,

I agree. We have kids today getting rejected for scholarships even though they meet (sometimes shatter) the academic criteria for scholarships, however, are beat out to lower academic scholar due to their skin color is the wrong color.

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015 I expect to not have to turn on my tv and see the people robbing us all blind smiling and treating us with disdain and contempt while they milk the last few scraps out of everyone to perpetuate their own lifestyle before it all implodes.

Are you referring to those million/billionaires that are putting services out that we begged for? Like Walmart were we said we wanted bigger, brighter and cheaper goods and they provided it? Or are your referring to those hedge managers who trade in fake money and speculate, forcing the market to do their bidding? If it's the latter, I agree 100%

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015I expect the police to have the resources available to do their jobs and for justice to apply to everybody, not just those who were born connected.

I cannot disagree with you here. I'd go as far as saying that every law maker should be forced to follow the laws they create for the masses.

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015I expect ministers to actually pay to travel to work the same as I do, to buy food with their money the same as I do, to pay their rent with their own money and buy their houses with their own money like I do, I expect them to not be paid extra simply for turning up to the office, I expect them to earn their payrises the same as everybody else in the country. I expect them to treat the people who work their arses off to be treated with some respect and dignity. I expect my kids to be able to get a pension when at the end of their working life this country decides it no longer has a use for them.

Not exactly sure what this tangent actually is, but most ministers live a very mundane life as most give all their worldly possession to serve their church. Now, the head of the church.... well... That could be a thread all in it's own!

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015That is why I support every one of those people protesting, whether they work or claim benefits makes no difference to me, their political affiliations and ideologies, race and economic status makes no difference to me either. They nearly all have ancestors who either died for this country or were exploited by this country and like them, I am sick of this.. Of all of it, and if it doesn't end with peaceful protests then I will be right there with them when they finally tear this whole system down brick by brick because I would rather see it all burn to the ground than continue. I am not going to comply anymore or be party to it.

And when you tear this system down, how will your new system look? Every makes a great wage? There will be no more large businesses? Will you put a cap on what people can earn and anything above that goes to the less fortunate?

How will you handle the Indigent? How will you handle the people who just don't want to work? How will you prevent greed to once again put us right back to where we are today?

Honest questions as once you tear it down, you are going to have to rebuild it in some fashion.

originally posted by: wayforward
a reply to: TechUnique

This is proof positive the world is doomed. 250,000 people rally for free government hand-outs, whether funded by debt or not. How many in the UK rallied for basic human rights? 250 rally for basic freedom and rights?

An economy which provides living wage jobs with retirement should be a basic right. Not slave/work/die. If millions of people cant survive without welfare, without going hungry, without perpetual begging from family, friends and the community, then the system is not working. Your "individualist meritocracy" isn't possible for millions.

All this talk of a meritocracy is empty rhetoric. Capitalism absolutely requires social programs and government intervention. Austerity, or free market slashing of social programs/publicly provided services for the poor/working poor are cruel, especially cruel at a time of economic crisis or in the wake of a crisis. The corporations themselves are given billions of dollars straight out. Tax rates for the extremely rich, at least in America, are also much lower than during the post war boom. Living wage jobs are scarce. Unemployment is still high despite the (various) governments fudging of the numbers. The market system, left to its own devices, will continue to generate obscene wealth side by side with extreme poverty, with most of the money being made from inheritance or simply by owning/investing capital (in unproductive ways).

Our uber financialized offshoring economy in America is a major issue. I'm not sure about the UK but here in the States our "meritocracy" is broken. The idea kept alive by right wingers the world over who are hell bent on regurgitating FOX news soundbites. Like a congregation at a Jerry Falwell sermon.

a reply to: Bearack

It's been a long day man, am feeling a bit ranty and it's not the most concise post ive ever made.

As far as what system I'd like to see implemented. I'd prefer the total dissolution of state power in favour of local level community governance where elected officials are directly accountable to the areas they serve. To many the word anarchy is frightening and loaded but I guess that's close, or some form of minarchism.

You'll never prevent greed, corruption or the lazy. The best you can hope for in that scenario is a reset button for civilisation that diminishes power to its lowest common denominator and increases personal responsibility while encouraging community cohesion but it's not and can't ever be an end in itself. Minarchism would organically sprout from even the most anarchic society out of necessity and we'd eventually get back to something that looks like it does now, possibly having learned some valuable lessons along the way about egalitarianism but probably not.

I'd certainly prefer that to this.

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: wayforward
a reply to: TechUnique

This is proof positive the world is doomed. 250,000 people rally for free government hand-outs, whether funded by debt or not. How many in the UK rallied for basic human rights? 250 rally for basic freedom and rights?

An economy which provides living wage jobs with retirement should be a basic right. Not slave/work/die. If millions of people cant survive without welfare, without going hungry, without perpetual begging from family, friends and the community, then the system is not working. Your "individualist meritocracy" isn't possible for millions.

All this talk of a meritocracy is empty rhetoric. Capitalism absolutely requires social programs and government intervention. Austerity, or free market slashing of social programs/publicly provided services for the poor/working poor are cruel, especially cruel at a time of economic crisis or in the wake of a crisis. The corporations themselves are given billions of dollars straight out. Tax rates for the extremely rich, at least in America, are also much lower than during the post war boom. Living wage jobs are scarce. Unemployment is still high despite the (various) governments fudging of the numbers. The market system, left to its own devices, will continue to generate obscene wealth side by side with extreme poverty, with most of the money being made from inheritance or simply by owning/investing capital (in unproductive ways).

Our uber financialized offshoring economy in America is a major issue. I'm not sure about the UK but here in the States our "meritocracy" is broken. The idea kept alive by right wingers the world over who are hell bent on regurgitating FOX news soundbites. Like a congregation at a Jerry Falwell sermon.

This is what I find just mind boggling! People in this day an age are living MUCH better than they ever have in the history of humanity! In the 19th century, nearly 80% of the worlds population was living at or below the poverty line and that has dramatically changed over the last century.

So it is worth stepping back and recognizing that many indicators point to a world that is improving. New data from the World Bank show that the proportion of extremely poor people has more than halved over the last 30 years, from 42% of the global population in 1981 to 17% in 2010. While 1.2 billion people in the developing world still live on less than $1.25 per day – a problem that we certainly must address – the rate of extreme poverty has never been lower. Economists estimate that in 1820, more than 80% of all people were extremely poor.
Read more at www.project-syndicate.org... ld-has-improved#4QRLFZ0LUCRUEMp2.99

There is a point were there isn't enough fiat money to offer as gifts to win elections.

a reply to: MagnaCarta2015

I appreciate your honest answer! We might disagree, however, I do appreciate where you would like us to be. I just don't think it's practical.

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: JeanPaul

What was written almost 100 years ago resonates well to what is coming now lol

V.I. Lenin : Letter to American Workers
www.marxists.org...

The history of modern, civilised America opened with one of those great, really liberating, really revolutionary wars of which there have been so few compared to the vast number of wars of conquest which, like the present imperialist war, were caused by squabbles among kings, landowners or capitalists over the division of usurped lands or ill-gotten gains. That was the war the American people waged against the British robbers who oppressed America and held her in colonial slavery, in the same way as these “civilised” bloodsuckers are still oppressing and holding in colonial slavery hundreds of millions of people in India, Egypt, and all parts of the world.

About 150 years have passed since then. Bourgeois civilisation has borne all its luxurious fruits. America has taken first place among the free and educated nations in level of development of the productive forces of collective human endeavour, in the utilisation of machinery and of all the wonders of modern engineering. At the same time, America has become one of the foremost countries in regard to the depth of the abyss which lies between the handful of arrogant multimillionaires who wallow in filth and luxury, and the millions of working people who constantly live on the verge of pauperism. The American people, who set the world an example in waging a revolutionary war against feudal slavery, now find themselves in the latest, capitalist stage of wage-slavery to a handful of multimillionaires, and find themselves playing the role of hired thugs who, for the benefit of wealthy scoundrels, throttled the Philippines in 1898 on the pretext of “liberating” them, and are throttling the Russian Socialist Republic in 1918 on the pretext of “protecting” it from the Germans.

I think Lenin and the Bolsheviks did a great job of showing us what not to do. Authoritarian centralized command economies under the control of a technocratic elite pinned in a perpetual war against more advanced capitalist nations would just be a repeat of history. New forms of economic systems are possible. A mixture of actual democracy, markets, worker control of production and the use of supercomputers to help (planned) gov funded programs meet needs rather than spending on war. Just think of what the trillions of dollars the US has spent on war could have done to fund productive well paying jobs in America. The war spending has been profitable but not necessarily so for main st. Just one example of our broken system this side of the pond.

I think WW2 "reset" many economies for a while. It destroyed vast amounts of old money/capital in Europe and set the stage for a rebuilding process which boosted economies in the advanced west. America came out the winner. The old colonial system was also dismantled and market expansion into old colonies became very profitable. New sources of labor, new resources open to more nations rather than the old colonizers (Britain/France etc). I'm not so sure Keynes ideas would have had such an impact absent the destruction from WW2. I don't think Keynesian policies is the way forward. The Neoliberals have also had their shot. It's time for something new.

Anyhow, The post war boom ended in the 1970's and since capital has been accumulating at an astonishing rate whilst labor's gains remain almost stagnant. This divide is real. A divide most of the right wing refuses to acknowledge. Some will give lip service to opposing "monopolies" (corporations) but in the end will side with them on just about every issue. It's mind boggling. Most people on "the left" aren't talking about raising taxes on small businesses and people making less than $500k annually. Nor are they talking about taxing inheritance under 5 million dollars. The super-massive banks, corporations and billionaires should be "the target". Why do so many right wingers think they have any interests in common with these folks? We need more Jeffersonian right wingers. Less corporate lackeys.

originally posted by: Bearack

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: wayforward
a reply to: TechUnique

This is proof positive the world is doomed. 250,000 people rally for free government hand-outs, whether funded by debt or not. How many in the UK rallied for basic human rights? 250 rally for basic freedom and rights?

An economy which provides living wage jobs with retirement should be a basic right. Not slave/work/die. If millions of people cant survive without welfare, without going hungry, without perpetual begging from family, friends and the community, then the system is not working. Your "individualist meritocracy" isn't possible for millions.

All this talk of a meritocracy is empty rhetoric. Capitalism absolutely requires social programs and government intervention. Austerity, or free market slashing of social programs/publicly provided services for the poor/working poor are cruel, especially cruel at a time of economic crisis or in the wake of a crisis. The corporations themselves are given billions of dollars straight out. Tax rates for the extremely rich, at least in America, are also much lower than during the post war boom. Living wage jobs are scarce. Unemployment is still high despite the (various) governments fudging of the numbers. The market system, left to its own devices, will continue to generate obscene wealth side by side with extreme poverty, with most of the money being made from inheritance or simply by owning/investing capital (in unproductive ways).

Our uber financialized offshoring economy in America is a major issue. I'm not sure about the UK but here in the States our "meritocracy" is broken. The idea kept alive by right wingers the world over who are hell bent on regurgitating FOX news soundbites. Like a congregation at a Jerry Falwell sermon.

This is what I find just mind boggling! People in this day an age are living MUCH better than they ever have in the history of humanity! In the 19th century, nearly 80% of the worlds population was living at or below the poverty line and that has dramatically changed over the last century.

So it is worth stepping back and recognizing that many indicators point to a world that is improving. New data from the World Bank show that the proportion of extremely poor people has more than halved over the last 30 years, from 42% of the global population in 1981 to 17% in 2010. While 1.2 billion people in the developing world still live on less than $1.25 per day – a problem that we certainly must address – the rate of extreme poverty has never been lower. Economists estimate that in 1820, more than 80% of all people were extremely poor.
Read more at www.project-syndicate.org... ld-has-improved#4QRLFZ0LUCRUEMp2.99

There is a point were there isn't enough fiat money to offer as gifts to win elections.

World banks numbers are very misleading. Their poverty threshold is very subjective. Once people rise a penny over they are no longer considered to be in poverty. Also, China and India represents a large number of people in the developing world who fall into those statistics. These haven't been "free market" economies.

a reply to: TechUnique

It´s too hard, how the "Elites" handle this.
250.000 people protest against austerity, and here in germany, in the elites MSM, not one word, nothing!
They are afraid it maybe could be contagious, imo!
Thanks for your video

originally posted by: DerBeobachter
a reply to: TechUnique

It´s too hard, how the "Elites" handle this.
250.000 people protest against austerity, and here in germany, in the elites MSM, not one word, nothing!
They are afraid it maybe could be contagious, imo!
Thanks for your video

No problem! I agree with you wholeheartedly on the contagious aspect as well.

Well when you open your doors to millions and millions of poor immigrants and combine that with nanny state socialist hand outs and high taxes, this is the result.

Course it's always easier to blame the successful instead of comprehending the reality that socialism is a complete failure.

Just like with the Bolsheviks, as well as Mao. Basically blame the wealthy, murder them, and then replace them with a new group of now wealthy, hypocritical self entitled morons. ~$heopleNation

originally posted by: SheopleNation
Well when you open your doors to millions and millions of poor immigrants and combine that with nanny state socialist hand outs and high taxes, this is the result.

Course it's always easier to blame the successful instead of comprehending the reality that socialism is a complete failure.

Just like with the Bolsheviks, as well as Mao. Basically blame the wealthy, murder them, and then replace them with a new group of now wealthy, hypocritical self entitled morons. ~$heopleNation

Ah, the immigrants!