Predestination - Freewill and the hardened heart

Romans 9 contains a complicated passage that appears to question freewill. I am going to explain Election and the predestination of Pharoh's hardened heart and how it ties into predestined outcomes and freewill.

This link explains predestined outcomes. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Romans 9

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

In the first part of Romans 9 Paul is discussing how the Elect are choosen by God and not by men. One can't become a prophet because of their own desire to be a prophet, the elect are choosen by God alone.

In other sections it has already been made clear that God has mercy on the repentant and does not have mercy for the unrepentant. So when it says he will have mercy on whom he wants. God wants to show mercy to those who repent, so the predestined outcome for repentance is mercy.

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

If you read this passage you could be lead to believe that Pharoh didn't have free will.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

His audience obviously doesn't understand Election and Predestination at this point in the dialogue. This passage appears to solidify the lack of Freewill.

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I have bolded what I believe is the key to the entire passage. Notice that Paul refers to God having patience with Pharoh before his destruction. God gave Pharoh time to repent but he refused. Pharoh was a tyrant who claimed equality with God. The predestined outcome for those who claim equality with God is a hardened heart and destruction.

Pharoh's heart was hardened because of the freewill choices he made. The hardened heart was God's righteous judgment. Pharoh could not see Moses as anything but a magician. He did not believe Moses had power from God, because God had hardened his heart for proclaiming himself equal to God.

Is God unjust for Harding the hearts of those who claim they are equal to him? If he chooses to display his wrath against those who exalt themselves to teach those who do not exalt themselves, who will call God unjust for hardening thier hearts?

The above is what I believe to be the correct understanding. But their is another possibility. If you change the focus to this part the passage.

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

When a horse hears the trumpet blast he charges ahead fearless, unaware of any impending doom. Death is not on the mind of the horse. The horse charges forward.

When the human hears the trumpet blast their is a moment of fear. But that fear is overcome by brotherhood. Thus the humans charge into battle one alongside the other. The humans fear death but know the best way to avoid death is to remain united. So the humans charge ahead united.

The horse does not contemplate the fears of men.

If Satan is like a horse, charging ahead without fearing his destruction. He is like the horse charging into battle, he does not fear death, because he does not have the mind to contemplate it.

If Satan was created for destruction and charges ahead without fear, is God justified when he destroys the one he created to be destroyed?

Are the arrogant, greedy, and those who worship demons, men with hardened hearts or horses running towards their destruction?

Is God Just in destroying the horses for the sake of the humans?

Although I believe in the predestined outcome of a hardened heart, both arguments can be made. But with either argument God remains just and the one who justifies.

The one's who do not repent at the Revelation of Jesus Christ, they should be seen as horses running towards thier destruction without fear. Whether by a hardened heart or by design, those who fail to repent will continue charging towards their predestined outcome.

a reply to: Isurrender73

why did u decide to write your thread

a reply to: Layaly
The OP is offline, but the relation between Predestination and Freewill is a complex subject which could do with a little explaining (I try to steer clear of it myself).
That strikes me as a good enough motive for doing it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

interesting

I've wanted to do a thread on free will for a while but you have taken it from a completely different vantage point. Are you saying everything is predetermined until you repent, then it became free will choices? Went a bit wayward with the horse analogies IMO.

The notion that God is all seeing, all knowing past and future highlights that freewill is not possible. If gods plan was "written in stone", then we have no choice, our outcome is predetermined.you may say just cos he knows the outcome doesn't mean you don't have free choice. But to me, freewill is the ability to deviate from "destiny" or a predetermined "high possibility". Freewill would be an illusion as it would still coencide with the pretermined divine plan.

The best way to explain it is in terms of Adam and eve (sorry die hard christians). God has a plan. He knows what his actions will do as he has it all planned (divine plan). So by putting the tree of temptation in the garden he KNEW that Adam and Eve would eat from it, they had NO CHOICE in the matter. If gods plan took into account they wouldn't take it, they wouldn't have. God knew by putting it there they would take it. God actively chose for us to be fallen against any preconceived notion of freewill.
God didn't need to put the tree there at all, he wanted us fallen as part of of his plan, without any chance of them deviating from it.

It highlights that freewill is just a religious notion and outside of religious realms it would just be called choice, weighing up the benefits and disadvantages that will prolong life, the same cognitive processes that exist in all lifeforms, not just the apes that God liked. Could go on for years but I suppose it's time to work.

a reply to: rossacus

In the matrix movies the Oracle knows the future..
She says don't worry about it, and classic Keanu is like hhuuhh? Whaaa.. And knocks over a vase..
"how did you?"
I know everything.. What will really cook your noodle is would you have knocked it over if I hadn't warned you..

Above him in the door it says "Know thyself" in latin.

Ok so the oracle goes on to explain (think this is the same scene havn't watched in some time)

if you know the future that means...
Oracle: "You already made your choices... "
"Then what's the point?"
Oracle: "Understanding.. "



I find that to be rather bleak.. But I am not sure it's not true.

Then again she says it which motivates Neo to make some impossible choices in the 3rd movie.. Choices the Oracle said were impossible cause it's one or the other..
ie: Free will does exist..

Being God must be boring, until it's understood.

My life kind of feels like I can bend the rules, but the path is always there pulling me back.
Maybe I just need more power?

a reply to: KnightLight

Maybe I just need more power?

will vodka and redbull do?

a reply to: Layaly

How did you know?
Flashes to cop chase in the back seat of friends car.
I had enough power that night, whoa..

a reply to: KnightLight

Nice analogy. What I would say is if the Oracle wrote down everything she knew and she was still correct about everything, wouldn't it lead you to believe that all neos actions are predetermined. That the fact his choice (freewill) has already been predetermined and by thinking he is changing his course he is in fact going down the allocated path (prediction). Eg. Vase hitting the ground. If a prediction is right 100% of the time no matter how much you try to deviate it can't be seen as freewill, the very notion implies changing ones future/destiny. The oracle also said that to put neo on the path, the path that was already predetermined and she knew she had to give that false info to fulfil the prophecy. All the computer programmes refered to themselves as "this is my purpose" (key maker). The matrix is a mirror of religion and very well done at that.

With regards with the understanding notion, that has been taken from religious teachings, a kop out answer for the unexplainable. Why do we live on earth when god already knows whether we are going heaven or hell, we have no choice? "As a test to understand ourselves"...ok why do kids have cancer?..."er...er..the Lord works in mysterious ways".

a reply to: rossacus

interesting

so if u had cancer u can't choose to be a priest

choice hence free will

life on earth is what we have been given by god knows who
enjoy it till u can

it is not very clear what is the point here

a reply to: rossacus

have u ever died or almost die

a reply to: rossacus

I should have made that more clear..
The oracle didn't know everything..


It wasn't until near the end of the third movie that Neo realized free will,
and he was only Neo because like you say the oracle set that up..

The entire movie premise is that there is an equation.. But once there is an anomaly making the equation imperfect.. That IS free will.

ever watched a tazzy devil at zoo

he is so viciously energetic he runs and runs and runs in circle. he hops into a puddle he jumps over a brunch and he does that same cycle routine. when he forgot to jump into the puddle he remember few moments later went back hoped in the puddle and kept running.

cute until u get tired of looking at it. he had a completely separate huge area to play in but never saw it

a reply to: rossacus

we are saying the same thing

ignore me

one thing I add.. the almost died experience.. is an interesting one.

a reply to: Layaly

The one thing I can't question is these life saving experiences. To me I'm sure there is a physical reason (100z of compounding coincidences /fortunes) but in some stories there is little evidence for this, thus you just have to take the word of the lucky people that survived. When it comes to car accidents, no such things as guardian angels, just luck amplified by the safety features of the car. E.g my legs were crushed but why not me?

a reply to: KnightLight
Fair point. But while we are using the matrix as an example remember that entire crops died without the "illusion" of free choice. (I'm pretty sure agent smith said that), free choice or the idea of choice. They had to programme in choice for humans to accept the programming, another social commentary aspect of the matrix relating to religion that without the preconceived notion of "freewill" or "choice", we don't accept the world we are in. A perfect example how alot of religious people see religion, without it no moral compass or ability to have freewill without it being god given.

I've always liked matrix analogies so thankyou for mentioning it and responding toy interpretations.

a reply to: rossacus

The notion that God is all seeing, all knowing past and future highlights that freewill is not possible.

Because God is capable of all seeing and knowing does not me He exercises it 24/7. I would think that He allows us some privacy .

a reply to: the2ofusr1
Nice idea but does go against the teachings of a religious god.its safe to say that if god(creator better term)did create the universe it's unlikely he actually cares our species more than he does an amoeba on a distant rock in another galaxy

a reply to: rossacus

ALL of this is just my current random thoughts on the matter in relation to this thread so keep that in mind. Also speaking as if the matrix is a pretty valid idea about reality

Yea the illusion of free will through choice is important, but it's still free will. it's good enough, especially if there is no way out of the matrix. The first world's were paradise, like the garden of Eden. That didn't work.. Shouldn't we show the matrix in what ways it still isn't good enough? Maybe I am stubborn. I have that spooky shouldn't be challenging powers on high feeling, but whatever.. Smart people are always in danger of not wanting to be in the matrix, so as humanity grows in technology and intelligence we become more robotic waiting to die, and then there are those on the edge..

My moral compass is in constant flux. I think it is only based on my past, my dna, my will, thoughts, dreams, actions.. I am not sure I can think that right and wrong are a thing. That will freak out a christian, but I'm probably nicer than they are anyway..


In the matrix there are humans and there are programs.
There is Dharma and Karma. The Indian man and Woman, at the Train Station. (between worlds)
Between worlds.... They are even choosing to sneak (the daughter) back into the matrix or whatever was happening fuzzy on that memory.. Only by way of the "Merovingian."
But the "man" program, does not disrespect his karma his "place in life." He says "it is what I must do." It is what brought me my lovely wife Chamile and my beautiful daughter Sati, these are gifts, and I honor them by doing what I must do..

So he's basically saying god was going to delete his daughter for not having a purpose, but he found a way to smuggle her back in with the help of the "vampire, or immortal or bloodline dude who is obsessed that it is all cause and effect" The overall equation balances out I imagine in other ways, and Karma would adjust as well.. Can't remember the price they payed but I imagine the Frenchman has steep rates.

You can go against the creator.. He/She/they might respect you for it, maybe, lol, or you get god smacked, or both.

That's even as a program, and not a human with a body.

Agent Smith would have never cloned himself and been (as powerful as neo) except that he needed to.

Near the end of that last movie, they make the caduceus. (flying in spirals until they hit at the top, is that the 6th chakra?)

He IS defeated by the program.. Except he is not.. It's in almost every story. Also that true Love conquers all bit.

and then back to the 7th world after the 6th gets wiped out. The architect agrees to put everyone back into the matrix, and the oracle sits there at the end looking all happy.

You see choice was always there.. Neo broke the laws before he realized true free will.
And the way I am seeing it, is that at first your path is like a tightrope, but you can make it wider by stretching your free will.. and in that way you have much more leeway in staying on "god's path."

Neo made "god's path." encompass saving All of humanity, which is what god wanted anyway, but didn't need it to happen if Neo never woke up..

So you do have free will... It's just hard sometimes, taking the lumps, making the game bigger and moving on.
You could be perfect never mess up, never do anything good either, and go in a straight and narrow path.
Or you could allow for a much more interesting story.


I think???

I hope that was clear enough, I am loving this topic.

thanks for being the opposing argument.

And with heavy heart, he became enlightened.. Or I mean he was so Light he fell do to gravity.. OR OK.. hmm