A Few Questions about Wealth and Large Corporations

originally posted by: boohoo

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
* did not earn what they have.
* don't care about poverty or those in poverty
* make a living on the backs of the poor
* wanting to enslave the world
* simply murder 7 billion people to gain more resources for themselves
* only care about their own greed

Can you convince me that they did not do these things to obtain wealth? Obviously not ALL wealthy people are guilty of these crimes, but many are.

Can you convince me that low/middle class people care MORE for other people than wealthy? Are middle class people less greedy? Are lower income earners earning every penny they collect from government? Yes...I'm referring to a specific group here. Let's throw a random variable into the mix - most blue collar crimes are committed by lower class income earners. Is rape/murder and better/worse than sheltering tax funds in a foreign bank? Sure, rich people commit some terrible crimes, but are they any worse?

Let's just admit that people are people - people of all classes are equally capable of hate, not caring for others, and desiring to get ahead while others suffer. To accuse the wealthy of this but exclude others is dishonest.

originally posted by: stolencar18
Can you convince me that low/middle class people care MORE for other people than wealthy? Are middle class people less greedy? Are lower income earners earning every penny they collect from government? Yes...I'm referring to a specific group here. Let's throw a random variable into the mix - most blue collar crimes are committed by lower class income earners. Is rape/murder and better/worse than sheltering tax funds in a foreign bank? Sure, rich people commit some terrible crimes, but are they any worse?

Let's just admit that people are people - people of all classes are equally capable of hate, not caring for others, and desiring to get ahead while others suffer. To accuse the wealthy of this but exclude others is dishonest.

I'm strictly talking about the financial aspects of how the "owners of capital" have stolen from the average taxpayer, with TOTAL disregard for the "collateral damage", exemplified through the following:

-Inherited seed funding for questionable start-ups or simply falling into a leadership role within an existing successful family businesses (* did not earn what they have)

-Causing the government to pick up the tab for their employees living below the poverty line (* don't care about poverty or those in poverty)

-Using that public assistance as a form of subsidy to increase unearned profits (* make a living on the backs of the poor)

-Increasing micromanagement of employees time, ON AND OFF THE CLOCK, through the application of "lean processes" (* wanting to enslave the world)

-Signing public policies that with CERTAINTY result in the deaths of people from lower classes (* simply murder 7 billion people to gain more resources for themselves)

-As for "only care about their own greed", that's everyone's problem, so I am not going to blame the rich for that universal desire.

But really, open your eyes, we are talking about Robber Barron's here, who's actions are on par with those whom supported the Italian Fascist economy of 1922-1943.

For example, Walmart employs 2.2 million people whom collect over $6 Billion in public assistance per year. Who is responsible for this number? The local government, federal government, Walmart leadership, the employees? In 2013,the Walton family's net worth was $144.7 billion. So why can't they pay back the government the $6 billion their employees took from taxpayers OR simply pay their employees enough so they no longer qualify for public assistance?

Do you get a government subsidy of that size for YOUR small business? I certainly do not and thats EXACTLY what this is.

To answer your original question, too much is when there is such a high accumulation of wealth it starts to hinder the free market.

If we had 100% free market conditions, we wouldn't have the 1% controlling the wealth. True free markets BALANCE resources. What we have now is not a balanced - and the truth is we don't live in a free market. In realty, free markets don't exist. So when there is such an extreme tilt of resources - something went wrong that needs to be corrected.

Correcting this by direct often doesn't work because it doesn't correct the core problem that caused the lack of free markets.

But I want you to think about ethics for a second. You and I most likely agree that a private person can not use physical strength against another to take something - that's unfair/unethical in even the most conservatives person's book. You wouldn't say let them fight it out and who ever is the strongest should get it. You want society to pull their money and provide you protection from the unfairness of someone using their god given natural physical strength against you.

Though it's cool for many of the super rich to use intellectual or resources of their family to game the system so the free market doesn't work. Hiring a politician's son so you can get a law passed that benefits your business isn't free market. Either than a club of the good old boys who can fix prices with simply a wink. So of these things might be perfectly legal but would not exist in a free market.

So think about that......

originally posted by: boohoo

originally posted by: stolencar18
Can you convince me that low/middle class people care MORE for other people than wealthy? Are middle class people less greedy? Are lower income earners earning every penny they collect from government? Yes...I'm referring to a specific group here. Let's throw a random variable into the mix - most blue collar crimes are committed by lower class income earners. Is rape/murder and better/worse than sheltering tax funds in a foreign bank? Sure, rich people commit some terrible crimes, but are they any worse?

Let's just admit that people are people - people of all classes are equally capable of hate, not caring for others, and desiring to get ahead while others suffer. To accuse the wealthy of this but exclude others is dishonest.

I'm strictly talking about the financial aspects of how the "owners of capital" have stolen from the average taxpayer, with TOTAL disregard for the "collateral damage", exemplified through the following:

-Inherited seed funding for questionable start-ups or simply falling into a leadership role within an existing successful family businesses (* did not earn what they have)

-Causing the government to pick up the tab for their employees living below the poverty line (* don't care about poverty or those in poverty)

-Using that public assistance as a form of subsidy to increase unearned profits (* make a living on the backs of the poor)

-Increasing micromanagement of employees time, ON AND OFF THE CLOCK, through the application of "lean processes" (* wanting to enslave the world)

-Signing public policies that with CERTAINTY result in the deaths of people from lower classes (* simply murder 7 billion people to gain more resources for themselves)

-As for "only care about their own greed", that's everyone's problem, so I am not going to blame the rich for that universal desire.

But really, open your eyes, we are talking about Robber Barron's here, who's actions are on par with those whom supported the Italian Fascist economy of 1922-1943.

For example, Walmart employs 2.2 million people whom collect over $6 Billion in public assistance per year. Who is responsible for this number? The local government, federal government, Walmart leadership, the employees? In 2013,the Walton family's net worth was $144.7 billion. So why can't they pay back the government the $6 billion their employees took from taxpayers OR simply pay their employees enough so they no longer qualify for public assistance?

Do you get a government subsidy of that size for YOUR small business? I certainly do not and thats EXACTLY what this is.

This may be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on this site, and that's saying a lot lol.

You honestly believe that businesses can't/shouldn't be handed down family lines, wealth shouldn't be passed down, that minimum wage CREATES poverty (instead of the decisions of people), managing employees time efficiently (why should anyone pay a slacker?) and most of all, that public policies are signed that with "certainty" CAUSE death?

Lets focus on that last one. Name a single policy is the history of mankind that caused the death of 7 billion people.

Name a policy that directly caused the death of ONE person actually.

As far as Walmart goes...you're only looking at one side of the equation.What about all the money Walmart injects into the economy? Or the fact that people like you and I can go there and get cheerios and sports socks for a few bucks instead of a higher end grocery or department store?

originally posted by: stolencar18
This may be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on this site, and that's saying a lot lol.

You honestly believe that businesses can't/shouldn't be handed down family lines, wealth shouldn't be passed down, that minimum wage CREATES poverty (instead of the decisions of people), managing employees time efficiently (why should anyone pay a slacker?) and most of all, that public policies are signed that with "certainty" CAUSE death?

Lets focus on that last one. Name a single policy is the history of mankind that caused the death of 7 billion people.

Name a policy that directly caused the death of ONE person actually.

As far as Walmart goes...you're only looking at one side of the equation.What about all the money Walmart injects into the economy? Or the fact that people like you and I can go there and get cheerios and sports socks for a few bucks instead of a higher end grocery or department store?

Easy to answer, here is just one example of how a signed piece of paper can kill people:

The 900 refugees drowned in the Mediterranean were killed by British government policy

Was it not "signed pieces of paper" that sent the Jews to the death camps?

Thank you for coming out in the open and identifying yourself as the ENEMY. In the 1920's they would have grabbed people like you supporting "crossing the picket line" and beat you senseless. Too bad modern society protects your kind from community justice. People like you blindly supported the policies that got us where we are today.

Again, we are talking about Robber Barron's here, who's actions are on par with those whom supported the Italian Fascist economy of 1922-1943. Thank you for coming out, to us all, as a modern day Squadristi.

a reply to: stolencar18

When making money becomes toxic to the enviornment and the community it's gone to far.

Nice job trying to ask loaded questions thougg.

a reply to: boohoo

I agree fully...One of the most intelligent responses I've seen on here.

originally posted by: stolencar18
You honestly believe that businesses can't/shouldn't be handed down family lines, wealth shouldn't be passed down, that minimum wage CREATES poverty (instead of the decisions of people), managing employees time efficiently (why should anyone pay a slacker?) and most of all, that public policies are signed that with "certainty" CAUSE death?

I don't think businesses should be handed down. I'm not a fan of generational wealth. That's precisely the type of institution that creates monolithic entities that are above the law. Kennedy's, Bush's, Koch's, Walton's, and so on. Even medium sized businesses shouldn't be handed down. That might suck for the person who wants to keep a small company in their family but it's much better than the alternative.

When it comes to the minimum wage, the economy has been at it's best when minimum wage had the highest purchasing power. This strongly correlates with other nations around the world as well, with only Singapore really bucking the trend (but they also have a massive poverty problem to go with most people being well off).

a reply to: stolencar18

As I said before...they think that wealth is a destructive force to humanity. You will never convince them otherwise. I only wish people like them could live under TRUE OPPRESSION so they can see how much freedom and POWER they truly have living in a free society. They control and own their own destiny and pocketbook....but instead it is easy to blame 1% of the population for all their problems. Then they don't have to take accountability for them.

a reply to: boohoo

Sadly, your own blindness and bigotry is the enemy....

a reply to: stolencar18

This site seems to be inundated with people commenting how this person is "too" rich or this corporation has "too much" profits.

The problem with people being "too" rich or corporations having "too much" profits has nothing to do with the amount of money. The problem is that corporations cheat to acquire that money and are detrimental in causing societies problems.

For example Comcast year after year gets the most hated company in the US by its own customers. Yet, despite being hated by their own customers they still bring in record profits. This only happens when corporations do back room deals and establish an Oligopoly to ensure their is no competition that allows them to continue to rape their customers. If the majority of customers hated a restaurant how long do you think that place would be in business?

Another example is the Military Industrial Complex: These private companies stand to make more profit during times of chaos not peace . The problem with that again is not the amount of money they are making, its that they have the lobbying power and money to dictate our legislation , policies, and guide us into wars.
Its no wonder the world is a cluster F , its in their best interest to stir the pot.

The issue with Mega Corporations boils down to: that they have an unattainable and unsustainable goal without getting further into grey areas.

The Mega corporations get to a point of desperation in order to exceeds last years profits for infinity. There is no problem with them chasing that unattainable goal , however the problem is that they have the power and money to dictate our legislation. So they are in essence controlling the market and controlling the consumer which makes it a fixed market.

Take away the money from lobbying, take away infinite super pacs, take away private campaign funding and keep our congress away from the money, and I don't care if they are all trillionaires.

The Mega Corporation Oligopolies are desperate and they are the ones creating our laws, its no wonder why they are always on the winning end and the tax payers picks up the tab.

In summary, its not about the amount its about how they are getting it .

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
a reply to: stolencar18

As I said before...they think that wealth is a destructive force to humanity. You will never convince them otherwise. I only wish people like them could live under TRUE OPPRESSION so they can see how much freedom and POWER they truly have living in a free society. They control and own their own destiny and pocketbook....but instead it is easy to blame 1% of the population for all their problems. Then they don't have to take accountability for them.

It's interesting how certain people react so strongly to the idea that someone has more than them and that's ok.

It's been an enlightening conversation. I stand by my views - if I work harder than you I should make more than you, and whatever I have is mine to do with as I please, as long as I'm within the laws of my land. If one day I become rich that's my privilege - not anyone elses.

As far as the response from boohoo goes, I applaud your candor. It's unfortunate that you're dishonest. Don't pretend for one second that if you were handed down a profitable business with 10,000 employees and a million dollars a month in your pocket that you would be some white knight and give it all back.

The bitterness within this thread is quite strong lol.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: stolencar18

When making money becomes toxic to the enviornment and the community it's gone to far.

Nice job trying to ask loaded questions thougg.

Of course the questions are loaded. I was quite open with that. I'm directing it right to a certain group of people looking for clarification of their opinions.

originally posted by: stolencar18
As far as the response from boohoo goes, I applaud your candor. It's unfortunate that you're dishonest. Don't pretend for one second that if you were handed down a profitable business with 10,000 employees and a million dollars a month in your pocket that you would be some white knight and give it all back.

The bitterness within this thread is quite strong lol.

Ha, ha, another simpleton response. What you are calling "bitterness", I CALL, real world business experience in the subject.

The executives and board members of ESOP and Co-op companies make no less than any other C-level leader running similar sized companies. The fact that people like you believe that we should stay on the path of business operations, that we are currently on, in the USA, is ludicrous. Current leaders CAN make their employees junior shareholders, allowing them to buy small pieces of the company one paycheck at a time and SMART leaders can get bought out by their employees using the ESOP or Co-op, as a LONG TERM buy-out strategy. NOBODY LOSES MONEY in these kinds of companies simply because the employees own a share of a company, get to see administrative polices in a transparent manner and have a chance to vote and have their voice heard.

Conceptual Guide to Employee Ownership

100: America's Largest Majority Employee-Owned Companies

originally posted by: stolencar18
You honestly believe that businesses can't/shouldn't be handed down family lines, wealth shouldn't be passed down, that minimum wage CREATES poverty (instead of the decisions of people), managing employees time efficiently (why should anyone pay a slacker?) and most of all, that public policies are signed that with "certainty" CAUSE death?

Employees should be given a chance to BUY the firms they work for, when the owners want to move on.

Wright Tree Service was founded in 1933 by John Wright's father. After staying in the family for nearly 70 years, the younger Wright decided it was time for a transition plan. In 2002, he sold 100% of the company to employees through an Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP).

Also, you are somewhat mistaken about what I would choose to do, IF, I were "handed down a profitable business with 10,000 employees and a million dollars a month in your pocket". I would certainly give the employees a chance to buy-in to the firm (like some accounting, law firms, construction, architecture and engineering firms CURRENTLY DO). You also have no idea how much of the company stock I own, in the firm I work for now. I see this ESOP style structures as a REAL working solution to our countries employment problems and not coincidentally I WORK IN SUCH AN ENVIRONMENT RIGHT NOW. So, I'd say, I have much more experience with how companies (of the size in your example) are passed on and sold, than you do.

Here is an example of what I am talking about, no, I don't work for Terracon specifically, but they offer similar services to the firm I work at now and are structured in a way that allows employees to buy-in as shareholders:

Terracon has been named #53 on the Employee Ownership 100, the list of the top 100 largest majority employee-owned companies in the country.

People like stolencar18 and CIAGypsy further illustrate how there is no hope for Americans at this stage because too many have FULLY bought into an illusion. Sadly these folks are too far gone and there is no going back for them. MAKE NO MISTAKE, they ARE the SAME kind of people that anonymously turned in Ann Frank to the Gestapo:

Who really turned Anne Frank over

These people are nothing more than mouthpieces and apologists for Robber Barron's, who's contemporary beliefs and actions are similar to the Italian Fascist of 1922-1943. People like stolencar18 and CIAGypsy MUST be RECOGNIZED NOW and IDENTIFIED IMMEDIATELY, as a modern day Squadristi. To do any less puts those who oppose their kind in danger. These kinds of people cannot and should not be given the benefit of the doubt because they are like those Dutch, whom "traded slaves", but claimed they "did not own slaves".

Would they be any less harsh or judgmental in the reverse situation?

Those that disagree with people like stolencar18 and CIAGypsy must escape the nation before its too late because large portions of its populace cannot and are unwilling to be swayed at this juncture. Adopting sustainable economics polices and business strategies is, simply, impossible for this culture and entrenched business climate. This nation is nothing more than a 2nd world, fascist stronghold and the sooner we admit it to ourselves, the faster changes can be made the better or escape plans can be laid.

"In the letter I sent to the employees, I reminded them that my goal in business is to create wealth and share it," Huizenga told MLive. "And we all worked together at J.R. Automation and Dane Systems had amazing success. It was the right thing to share with everybody.”

The total amount given to the company's 370 employees surpassed $3 million, a company official said. Katherine Gehl handed out the bonuses as she met with workers to discuss the March 27 sale of the company to Wind Point Partners, a Chicago private equity firm

double post

triple post

a reply to: boohoo

Lol..

You are call me a fascist? I'm not the one advocating limits on when you have "earned enough" and must give the rest away to your fellow citizens who did nothing to earn it.

You want to run off and start your own country with your own utopia? Please...by all means....do that. Then come back and tell me that capitalism has it wrong. There is NO form of society which is perfect. Every one of them has its pros and cons....but capitalism, by far, gives the most power to the people to create (or decline to create) their own destiny.

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
You are call me a fascist? I'm not the one advocating limits on when you have "earned enough" and must give the rest away to your fellow citizens who did nothing to earn it.

YES, I did, because only a Fascist would support the following:



Sorry that you are not familiar with what a Fascist Fiscal Policy is, despite being a sympathizer.

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
You want to run off and start your own country with your own utopia? Please...by all means....do that. Then come back and tell me that capitalism has it wrong. There is NO form of society which is perfect. Every one of them has its pros and cons....but capitalism, by far, gives the most power to the people to create (or decline to create) their own destiny.

Not surprised at your non-reaction to ESOP and Co-op companies. Employees being given a chance to BUY the firms they work for, when the owners want to move on, HAS ZERO EFFECT on offspring inheritances and major shareholders getting paid for their existing equity in the business.

I want corporations to pay their employees enough to not have to go on government assistance (note I DID NOT say minimum wage). NONE OF US average joe's should be paying taxes to keep these companies profitable, especially if these companies can't make a profit WHILE NOT HAVING LARGE PORTIONS OF THEIR EMPLOYEES RELIANT ON GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE. We know quite a few Fortune 500 companies fall into this category and they frankly should be out of business.

As you have illustrated, large portions of the USA populace cannot and are unwilling to be swayed at this juncture because they prefer "having the legal option to form dynasties" based on inherited wealth, even though NONE of them will EVER acquire enough wealth to take advantage of such a legal situation. Adopting sustainable economics polices and business strategies is, quite simply, impossible for this culture and its entrenched business climate. This nation is nothing more than a 2nd world, fascist stronghold run on Neo-feudalistic principles.

Parag Khanna, PhD in international relations at the London School of Economics, Senior Research Fellow at the New America Foundation, points out that within the same country there can be a coexistence of first and second, second and third or first and third world characteristics. A country's major metropolitan areas may exhibit first-world characteristics while its rural areas exhibit third-world characteristics, for example.

and that's EXACTLY what the United States is (i.e. not a 1st world nation).

a reply to: boohoo

I'm afraid to feed into your delusions any further but I have to ask...

Where do you get your ideas, and what makes you believe they are correct?

All of your posts so far say "they" or "no one" or "none" etc, but you don't back anything up. For example, "Employees being given a chance to BUY the firms they work for, when the owners want to move on, HAS ZERO EFFECT on offspring inheritances"..How do you figure? This is blatantly false. If a business owner WANTS his family line to inherit the business that should be his choice, not anyone elses. Even if you disagree, what does that matter? Tell me WHY it's wrong to have inherited businesses.

I'm trying to see your points but I can't, and I promise I'm not a fascist lol. Stop being a troll, quit throwing around wild accusations and slurs and empty threats and start backing up your talk. I'm listening with an open mind.

originally posted by: stolencar18
All of your posts so far say "they" or "no one" or "none" etc, but you don't back anything up. For example, "Employees being given a chance to BUY the firms they work for, when the owners want to move on, HAS ZERO EFFECT on offspring inheritances"..How do you figure? This is blatantly false. If a business owner WANTS his family line to inherit the business that should be his choice, not anyone elses. Even if you disagree, what does that matter? Tell me WHY it's wrong to have inherited businesses.

When employees BUY-OUT the owners equity, the owner is then free to pass on the proceeds of the sale to their offspring. However employee owned companies typically do not sell only to then spend the proceeds of the companies sale on something else, NOT RELATED TO KEEP THE BUSINESS GOING. The end result is that JOBS are maintained in the community, reducing unemployment and keeping tax revenue local as well.

How hard was that to understand?

I suppose it is possible that you and CIAGypsy, ARE AT BEST, Reactionaries, hence your support for Fascist fiscal policy. Also I linked articles explaining the benefits of ESOP's and Co-op structures. There are plenty of cited sources and research in those webpages. Did you bother to look at them?

What we have in the United States DOES NOT WORK, if it was working, 2.2 million Walmart Employees wouldn't need $6 Billion in public assistance per year. I'll post the articles again, so you can catch up on some light reading. Maybe this time around you can better understand what I have said:

A Conceptual Guide to Employee Ownership for Very Small Businesses

The Employee Ownership 100: America's Largest Majority Employee-Owned Companies

How Employee Ownership Benefits Executives, Companies, and Employees