Florida Court Rules Living ‘Off The Grid’ Is Illegal

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal

When guys like Obama talk about "stimulating the economy", they should really look at what's involved in starting a business, paying taxes, building structures, conforming to local zoning regs, etc. It will absolutely strangle a small business.

But here we are, basically having to kiss the butt of building/zoning officials in order to get work done. It shouldn't be this way, but if you complain to them ... like you said, they will hand you your ass and you can forget about ever getting something done again. Pretty scary thought that some people have that much power.

THIS STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, I have a client right now that started a small manufacturing plant in rough part of town, with low property values and high unemployment. He bought surplus equipment, found a customer base for the product, started hiring locals and now has a pretty stable small business going. HOWEVER, his manufacturing facility is a code nightmare, that I believe will eventually shut him down, due to the overall cost needed to bring everything up to code. Equipment has no footings or anchoraging, waste is not being properly stored, there are OSHA violations galore and some of the equipment may no longer be legal to use in the USA (explaining why he got it so cheap at auction).

Code enforcement paid hm a visit, so, only after that, did he decide to hire an architect and engineering to help get his building "up to code". I'm not sure what his overall strategy is because like most people new to Tenant Improvements and construction, he thinks this is a simple fix because he doesn't quite realize yet, that "common sense" has no direct relationship to "code compliance". Its actually too bad because he was creating jobs and tax revenue in a region where no one else was willing to. Its almost like there needs to be a "first-time Tenant-Improvement probation period" for code enforcement, so people like him can learn about building codes and have a chance to slowly get up to code over a 3-5 year period, without threat of being shut down and bankrupted overnight.

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: TrueBrit

I have emailed the ICC to ask for a comment on these issues, and for a comment on whether the organisation supports the use of its codes to prevent people living free of energy and utility costs.

This, ladies and gentleman, is what you should be doing.

The laws are so convoluted that those who apply the law can get away with it because nobody understands it, not even the people enforcing it. I dare say that if the owner challenged the courts to provide literal evidence that prohibits such actions the answer would probably be "well if you read section 7G, paragraph uhhh...12 you'll find that....y'know just shut up and give me my money already!"

Thats not how ICC and IBC work, AT ALL. YOU AND YOUR PEERS would need to serve on the code committees that decide the future direction of the codes (and your service would need to span many years to have any coherent influence). BUT, if you are not a licensed architect, engineer or at the very least a highly experience ICC inspector you will NOT be allowed to serve on these committees in any form.

This is what living in the land of the free has come to. You have the freedom to go F yourself and thats about it. People need to learn not to vote for liberals period.

a reply to: boohoo

I've never had a problem as a tradesman, project manager or NFPA member getting explanations from the ICC, and they value your input.

Trade groups have access. As an NFPA member I spoke directly to the person responsible for the code language I was questioning.

Further, most AHJs are at least 5 years behind adoption of the codes. Most use 2007 now. 2012 will probably be the next adopted by most AHJs. It's out and available years in advance, and each change is notated.

The codes are pretty common sense. If you find a new solution that works, they are usually eager to accept it. They have an interest in being inclusive of methods, as construction techniques vary wildly from region to region, and they don't make money unless more jurisdictions adopt their code.

originally posted by: ISawItFirst
a reply to: boohoo

I've never had a problem as a tradesman, project manager or NFPA member getting explanations from the ICC, and they value your input.

Trade groups have access. As an NFPA member I spoke directly to the person responsible for the code language I was questioning.

Further, most AHJs are at least 5 years behind adoption of the codes. Most use 2007 now. 2012 will probably be the next adopted by most AHJs. It's out and available years in advance, and each change is notated.

The codes are pretty common sense. If you find a new solution that works, they are usually eager to accept it. They have an interest in being inclusive of methods, as construction techniques vary wildly from region to region, and they don't make money unless more jurisdictions adopt their code.

You and I work in the industry, so our input is welcomed, valued and respected, which would not be the case with most laymen posting here, whom are motivated to become more involved in the code creation process. These laymen have no basis to make realistic recommendations, nor make any knowledgeable comments, so the likeliest outcome for such an efforts would be "placating" and eventually "silent dismissal" by the code committees (if they even get that far, which I highly doubt). Note, I was specifically talking about committee service, where MOST important things are finally decided. That's where the real influence of code creations lays, not simply "making comments" as an "owner-builder" that did a kitchen and bathroom remodel on 1,000 SF house last week.

a reply to: maddy21

God (or nature /something ) created man , therefor "it"holds dominion over man .

Man created Law ,therefor man holds dominion over law .

How then can Law hold Dominion over man ?

As I have stated before , Once man becomes privy to this knowledge then and only then will he stand up against tyranny .

He will become aware that He is ruler over his creation .

We are the free man , not bound by our creation of Law .

originally posted by: boohoo

originally posted by: ISawItFirst
a reply to: boohoo

I've never had a problem as a tradesman, project manager or NFPA member getting explanations from the ICC, and they value your input.

Trade groups have access. As an NFPA member I spoke directly to the person responsible for the code language I was questioning.

Further, most AHJs are at least 5 years behind adoption of the codes. Most use 2007 now. 2012 will probably be the next adopted by most AHJs. It's out and available years in advance, and each change is notated.

The codes are pretty common sense. If you find a new solution that works, they are usually eager to accept it. They have an interest in being inclusive of methods, as construction techniques vary wildly from region to region, and they don't make money unless more jurisdictions adopt their code.

You and I work in the industry, so our input is welcomed, valued and respected, which would not be the case with most laymen posting here, whom are motivated to become more involved in the code creation process. These laymen have no basis to make realistic recommendations, nor make any knowledgeable comments, so the likeliest outcome for such an efforts would be "placating" and eventually "silent dismissal" by the code committees (if they even get that far, which I highly doubt). Note, I was specifically talking about committee service, where MOST important things are finally decided. That's where the real influence of code creations lays, not simply "making comments" as an "owner-builder" that did a kitchen and bathroom remodel on 1,000 SF house last week.

Oh I agree 100%. A homeowner has no need to change the code. All they need is a variance in the way it is applied. The plan reviewer usually has that authority, if you have a good reason.

The code is written by a private group so they can sell books. It's in the local offices where the rubber meets the road. That's where there is redress.

a reply to: maddy21

Living off the grid is dangerous as then you are "off the system". Resourceful, independent citizens don't make good pieces for the machine.
The International Property Maintenance Code has no place in a free country.

a reply to: DAVID64

"Obligation to enforce the codes". Why? Is it too much to ask that our legal system acknowledge when a law is obsolete/useless and do what is right?

Like Policies and Statutes, codes aren't the law properly speaking. Its a circumvention of the law, designed as another cash cow to collect permit and licensing fees and fines for violations.

A way of enforcing what city hall wants without people voting on it, in order to make money for the coffers.

I now the legal branch will descend on that, its just my opinion. We are so far down the road from what just and whats lawful people have forgotten the difference or its buried under a ton of 'legalese'. Rules are not the same as laws.

originally posted by: ISawItFirst
Yes I agree. I was interupted, by guests, and may have been unclear. The oaths should be a check each step of the way. If the legislators were always true to their oath, the judge's might not need one. (They would, but you get my point, one doesn't excuse the other).

Guests...huh!...good god y'all...what are they good for?...Absolutely nothing!

Anyhoo, we agree, I was just point out that the source of the problem is the legislators, not (usually) the judges when you're talking about oaths. Too many legislators pass whatever they want without looking for constitutionality--that why I like some ideas that are floating around about passing an amendment that necessitates all bills include within them the specific portion of the Constitution that allows for the law.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Well, if you aren't hooked up to sewer, you're going to be dumping your waste on your land in ways that may not be very safe. Your waste could leech into the subsurface groundwater and contaminate other people's property, or the entire town/city's itself.

Where I'm from we call them septic tanks and septic fields and they are regulated as a requirement for personal waste disposal. You must be from a city?

a reply to: SlapMonkey


If they do that I'm gonna start a company that sells "elastic clause" stamps. Along with "for the common good"

a reply to: maddy21

A few of us on our end are getting tired of this garbage too. We'll set up in secret as long as we can.

a reply to: enament

your right to a point, or maybe i misunderstood your post.

in our county, all your have to do is if your property is in area that doesn't have sewer or one that allows either and you go with the septic tank. is follow the guidelines and pay the one time permit fee, and have a Perc Test done and have the drain field inspected once.

there have been a few changes made for septic tanks in our area, one is now some places require aeration pumps be installed in the tanks.

A percolation test (from percolation, colloquially called a perc test) is a test to determine the absorption rate of soil for a septic drain field or "leach field". The results of a percolation test are required to properly design a septic system. In its broadest terms, percolation testing is simply observing how quickly a known volume of water dissipates into the subsoil of a drilled hole of known surface area. While every jurisdiction will have its own laws regarding the exact calculations for the length of line, depth of pit, etc., the testing procedures are the same. In general, sandy soil will absorb more water than soil with a high concentration of clay or where the water table is close to the surface.
Percolation test

there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of septic tanks in Florida.

a reply to: maddy21
yes its crazy a friend of mine moved to another town and she asked that her water be turned off at her old house where nobody stayed the city told her whether she lived there or not they were gonnacharge a flat 44 dollar water fee and that even if the house wasn't hooked into city water if their pipes ran in front of a property vthey could still charge a flat rate . i thought this is bull fodder let me check with state utility commission and they said since it wasa town they could legally do this and there wasn't any choice but to pay it or it would get taken out of state tax return

the key factor here, is she's trying to do this within city limits.

If you're in a city, you're subject to all these codes. Simple as that. Sucks, but true.

That said, there are still ways to get permission, etc., but can't really fight city hall, time is on their side, not yours.

The city has the right seeing as it's in city limits, it doesn't make it right or mean I agree at all but I can see what their doing here. That being said Florida has some horrible approaches and some draconian laws that definitely are designed to make things hard on people who are not in the "system" . My brother just recently moved down there and his tales of how the homeless and other so called "undesirables" are treated are horrifying. We may soon reach the point in our society(or perhaps we already have) where trying to make your way through life off the grid will become a criminal offence.

Sad business really....

Not to mention, we're the "Sunshine State", yet you can forget going to solar here. The utility companies own the politicians here lock, stock, and barrel.

a reply to: maddy21

So I'm curious: Is the house I grew up in considered in violation of some international BS law because we survived entirely on well water and a septic system ?

a reply to: waverlyhills

The sad fact is, that if you are living off the grid, you cant be monitored efficiently. With the present terrorist laws, you will fall into this category, and become suspect. Below the radar in their eyes ,means you are trying to hide, which you of course are. So another load of bull#$%^ laws keep you on the economic treadmill. You could live well on a minimal wage, as long as you don't have to pay rent and utilities . They don't like that because your lifestyle has been elevated with minimal effort. In fact not withstanding the trappings of wealth time is your own. Their would be little difference between, the ultra rich and yours.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

Yes the same is done here, we dont call it a percolation test though . I have what is called an infiltrator system. Very strict building codes are enforced regarding their installation. Requiring 30 loads of sand placed under and above the infiltrator system. 16" above the infiltrators. I was lucky to have had all the sand on my property $3000 to $6000 it could have cost me to get it brought in. Here is the guidelines that must be followed
NB on site waste disposal.

The only thing I haven't gotten off grid yet is electricity and internet LOL soon the electricity though.