Can you link a harmful effect of government spying?

originally posted by: deadlyhope
First off, I am against spying on citizens, I don't believe it's been helpful and it's just infringing on our rights, I am against it.

That being said, does anyone have any news, articles, links, etc - from any source, mainstream or alternative - showing the negative effects of said spying? I've never looked into it myself but I'm sure there must be something.

I am not aware of any yet but when people begin to feel that others are exerting so much control over their lives that they feel their sovereignty as a free, independent sovereign human being is being compromised, then there many be some observable negative effects.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Thanks to US spying

Some people were picked up based on suspicion alone and tortured on CIA black sites.

Even MSM reported on this.

Google Employee Stalking Gmail Users

Man killed after being mistaken for sex offender

Mistaken for sex offender on ID card

Another One

Information gathering in of itself is not the problem. It's what people do once they get that information that is the problem. Information also makes people feel elite and special. It doesn't take long to realize that once you have enough information, and a small group of people in the world controlling that information, they will eventually decide they know better than everyone else.

Also see Michael Foucault's Panopticon.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: Shamrock6

I'm thinking of some arguments for a debate I have, but have none, other than infringement of rights. It's a big one, but counterterrorism efforts is also big. How do I debate this for the side of the people? Examples work best.

Examples where the government over stepped and illegally arrested people, for instance. Or used information against a person in smaller crimes, or manipulated information they supposedly overheard.

Aren't there examples already of some NSA using the tech to spy on opponents or ex-girlfriends? That's already an abuse and illegal I believe.

The CIA was caught spying on Congress.

The biggest issue is that such spying is a profoundly slipper slope, that can lead to greater abuses, as it has in many other countries.

Yes. There was also the Florida cop that arrested another cop for driving at speeds in excess of 100 mph. Other cops then started using state databases to gather information on her. To the tune of couple hundred hits on her license in a month or so. They were using an LE database to do so, but I think it speaks to the culture of "we can get whatever info we want for whatever reason we want" that many agencies have within the government. In fact I think she's suing several agencies for 4th Amendment violations.

a reply to: deadlyhope

The crucial thing would be that unless they make the system transparent enough that people can get an accurate and truthful read on how much positive effect these systems have had on national security (which they probably can't, due to the way terror networks operate and the low tech manner in which they normally communicate), then the system is invalid, as is the so called "trade off" of liberty for security.

Of course, no amount of security is worth the abuse of data and privacy that the Five Eyes are about these days.

a reply to: deadlyhope

I'm not sure we would know yet... at least not the worst of it.

Some believe that Justice Roberts only allowed Obamacare to stand because of blackmail with information obtained from government spying.

I don't remember any particulars now, but there have been claims that congress critters changed votes (on Obamacare, NDAA and other legislation) due to blackmail pressure.

There is also Sheryl Atkinsson, an investigative reporter, known for her work on Fast & Furious as well as Benghazi, whose computers were hacked, and her employer (CBS) was pressured to hush her up.

Here's a thread on ATS from December 2014:

Proof White House pressured CBS to hush reporter Sheryl Atkinson

An article from the NY Post:

Ex-CBS reporter: Government agency bugged my computer

I don't think we know the worst of what's been done, because the folks who know aren't talking... that's the point. And we probably won't know until it bites us all in the arse. And that's why an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
First off, I am against spying on citizens, I don't believe it's been helpful and it's just infringing on our rights, I am against it.

That being said, does anyone have any news, articles, links, etc - from any source, mainstream or alternative - showing the negative effects of said spying? I've never looked into it myself but I'm sure there must be something.

Here is something related, showing an abuse even beyond the NSA-dragnet style spying.

It's basically a case of the government trying to illegally spy, get info on, and possibly plant evidence on a reporter to hush them up.

nypost.com...

She is considering suing the government.

The harm done is that many people, even myself and also journalists, are becoming afraid to say what we mean or speak out against the government.

To be honest, I've begun to suspect that I am on some kind of hiring blacklist for certain high level positions. The only way probably that could be true would be from tracking my attendance at anti-war rallies going back to the Iraq War, my very vocal non-anonymous critiques of the NSA surveillance and CIA torture, and my calls for the Bush regime to be held responsible for torture and the Iraq war. I also have been non-anonymously called out Obama and the Democrats for supporting proxy wars in Libya and Syria (as in now). And when I say non-anonymous, I've even said such things very purposefully to people, professors, and professionals that work in international affairs. There's been some weird stuff happening with jobs that's making me paranoid. This may be another topic but is related to the subject at hand. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this on ATS. I know of stories of this happening to people.

These are the kinds of things that happened in places like East Germany or Stalinist USSR. Now they are leaking into our reality here. Again, the slippery slope.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: deadlyhope

The crucial thing would be that unless they make the system transparent enough that people can get an accurate and truthful read on how much positive effect these systems have had on national security (which they probably can't, due to the way terror networks operate and the low tech manner in which they normally communicate), then the system is invalid, as is the so called "trade off" of liberty for security.

Of course, no amount of security is worth the abuse of data and privacy that the Five Eyes are about these days.

I would add to your transparency argument that we never had a real and full public debate about such a system BEFORE it was instituted. In fact, the NSA lied to Congress point blank that they were not doing such things before Snowden came out. If that isn't enough to make people pause, then I don't know what is.

The second thing I told people after the Snowden revelations is that I take my 4th Amendment rights very seriously, and I believe that no American can give away MY rights so that they can feel more secure (if that even is the motive here in reality). A lot of the public keeps on saying they are willing to take the trade-off. Well, I'm not, and their fear doesn't give them the right to give my privacy away so that they can feel better.

Thirdly, I don't really trust the government anymore that the motive purely is anti-terrorism or what have you. Or maybe a vast majority of the government believes that but a small operative group is using it for more. That is more likely.

originally posted by: ProfessorChaos
How about the virtually endless list of people that now have to think about everything they say, and who they say it to, simply because they are aware that the government is listening in. Feels like a pretty harmful effect to me.

^This.. I agree with you. I think that this would be worthy of a social psychology study to actually demonstrate a harmful effect on a cross-section of the nation.

However, although that has not been done to my knowledge, I personally feel less privacy, a sense of "watching," and having to be careful what I write even under anonymous names like on here. By careful I mean not speaking against the government or bringing up other controversial topics.

There is also the fear that we will be tracked for our posts somewhere else, such as FB or youtube. Before someone says that those "aren't private," I get that, but there is no reason for a government entity to be tracking those and building a file, assuming that this is happening.

I think that it is stifling free speech through fear, which is antithetical to our claimed principles of freedom.