More Difficulties If We Head To Mars

a reply to: SkyStarOne
The rumor of that Russian Cosmonaut lost in space has seriously killed me at times. If true I couldn't think of a more horrifying feeling. Well I could but damn...that's some scary sh!t.

It takes a while before we can build proper magnetic shielding for the spacecraft. It takes so much energy, that I think fusion reactor is required for the space ship. But it's possible at least in theory to protect space travelers from cosmic & solar particles using artificial magnetic field. The problem is very high energy consumption, mere solar panels won't do the trick, neither fission batteries some spacecraft (New Horizons, Voyagers I and II) have.

And the trip to Moon was just few days journey, it won't kill you. To get Mars, 150 to 300 days journey is required, depending on the alignment of Earth and Mars, and speed of spacecraft. It's much longer time than to Moon.

a reply to: Jenisiz

These are hardly new, or additional difficulties, to those which have held serious efforts toward Mars back in times past. But shielding methods designed to emulate the action of the magnetosphere of our planet and make the effect vehicle mountable have been in the works for a fairly considerable period, at least five, if not a few more years. Increased understanding of shaped plasma fields which has been utilised in laminar flow technologies for aircraft, if it continues to develop as a concept, will be potentially useful to the astronauts of the future as well.

These problems are far from insurmountable, and cannot be held up as legitimate stumbling blocks to the human expansion into our near space.

a reply to: Jenisiz

Yeah that's currently an issue even with exercise now. I'd imagine though for that kind of a trip they would probably simulate gravity via rotating chambers.

Big "chambers". What about on Mars? The gravity there is one third of Earths.

originally posted by: Bilk22
a reply to: Jenisiz

Pretty basic question here - if they couldn't keep the astronauts from being irradiated back in the 60s, how did they keep the rest of the stuff the astronauts needed from being irradiated, such as their food, water, etc?

Depending on the exact type of radiation, irradiating something does not make it radioactive. Much of the food we eat has been irradiated to kill germs & parasites (link).

Actually how did they take pics with film? Wouldn't the sun's gamma rays, or what ever they are, have exposed the film right thru the camera and or storage canisters before the astronauts had a chance to snap their first pics?

For starters, the Van Allen Belts only protect the Earth from particle radiation - high-energy electrons & protons including cosmic rays (which are mis-named: they're not rays at all). The Van Allen Belts do not stop, slow-down or deflect electromagnetic radiation such as gamma rays or x-rays (or - for that matter - ordinary light. If they did, the effect would be visibly obvious when we look at the Sun, Moon, stars, etc.). Our atmosphere is the shield against EM radiation.

Therefore, whatever x-ray exposure the astronauts got on the Moon or going to or from it, the folk on the International Space Stations get it every day, including (and especially) when they go on spacewalks. The same goes for their film (or at least it did back when they used film - I don't know if everything is digital now).

The bottom line is that is not the big bad boogeyman that some people make it out to be. For example, in previous posts people were comparing medical x-rays to solar x-rays. A medical x-ray machine cranks-out EM radiation at around 8 million electron volts ("Hard" x-rays), whereas solar x-rays at less than 5 thousand electron volts ("Soft" x-rays). Soft x-rays can be blocked with relatively thin metal.

As others have already pointed out, the real radiation threat is from particle radiation on long-duration space missions.

Oh another question - in leaving the protective atmosphere of the Earth, isn't the effect of the Sun's "cosmic rays" the same as an EMP from a nuclear bomb?

The Sun is not a major source of cosmic rays. They come from outside the solar system (in some cases, from outside the galaxy).

Nuclear EMP is caused by the interaction of the nuclear detonation with the atmosphere. Nukes emit vast quantities of hard x-rays and gamma rays - but our atmosphere is very good at absorbing them. However, in doing so they air molecules become highly ionized. This creates a large voltage potential that tries to find "ground" through whatever conductors are available. The higher up the burst occurs, the further the x-rays can travel before being absorbed, and so the area of ionization (and the EMP effect) increases with altitude. A nuclear burst a few hundred miles up can cause EMP effects on the ground over thousands of miles. Incidentally, the hard x-rays from a nuke can also damage unshielded satellites tens of thousands of miles away.

By comparison, solar radiation is more benign - unless there is a major solar flare pointed at the Earth. The soft x-rays don't ionize the air much, but the charged particles can cause an EMP-like effect.

How did their electronics continue to work?

You mean how DO the electronics continue to work. Remember, there are hundreds of satellites & space probes operational right now from low Earth orbit to clear across the solar system and beyond. Small objects like these can be adequately shielded. Volume goes up as the cube, so much larger manned spacecraft will require many tons of shielding. For example, if we could mine the Moon or a captured near-Earth asteroid, then a 2-foot thickness of dirt would provide the habitation module with as much shielding as our atmosphere provides to the Earth's surface. Naturally, this would require a correspondingly larger propulsion system to get it where it's going.

Hope this helps.

originally posted by: Temudjin
a reply to: Jenisiz

Wasnt this solved with the Moon landing in the 60s with the camera and spacesuits since they lived for another 140 years

Trips to the moon only lasted 2 weeks. The short amount of time of exposure was key there.

A trip to Mars would take much longer, thus there will be a longer time for exposure to radiation.

originally posted by: Jenisiz

originally posted by: Temudjin
a reply to: Unity_99

I know who the "draconians" are , my people served them for over 10.000 years, still are in a weird way. Yes they control this planet, even tho insanely unbalanced. Don't worry it's sorted out in the nearest century

Care to share?

in somewhat ubiquitous web ufo lore the drakos are one of several genetically engineered slave races that inhabit our neck of the woods. some of the dracos allegedly live underground on earth and on/in the moon and other solar system bodies. The lore has it that the dracos occasionally eat humans; and are generally bad news to encounter. Also the lore has it that they infiltrated various governments either literally or by manipulation. Lore has it that the other escaped ET races are in a conflict with the dracos even though they are very closely related. The lore states that the conflict which was once once hot open conflict has went to a proxy war status with both sides or multiple sides using earth governments as pawns for unexplained reasons.

but all of the putative alien subraces alledgedly influencing earth are escaped genetically engineered slave races or are races created by the above in attempts to fix their genetic reproductive and other problems. this is why they are so interested in human genetics and reproduction and the reproductive systems of earth animals in general. they themselves seem to lack a full understanding of genetic science even though the lore has it they reproduce by cloning themselves when thier bodies are failing due to age or injury or illness. Possibly because the lore was developed largely before we ourselves ( which includes the lore creators) had as extensive a knowledge of genetics.

The creator race is more distant in the direction of lyra towards andromeda and as far as the lore is concerned inexplicably have not followed the escapees lately even though the slave races greatly fear them and they are more technically advanced and capable of doing so at will. The servitor races are very worried none the less that the "Lyrans" will come after them again.

Edit: when the servant races first fled the lyrans did pursue them with the intent to wipe them out but evidently gave up the chase once the servitors fled a distance that they think rendered the idea too bothersome to carry on to completion.

on that note; the servitor races are not capable of much in the way of technological innovation either. thier stuff is markedly inferior to the lyrans. they do not know how to improve what they got away with nor did they get away with examples or knowledge of all the lyran technologies.

the weblore stuff is a fairly intricate story worthy of the best sci fi writers.

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Last I remember, an X-ray does not take 24 hours.

I wonder how a person would fair in an x-ray machine for 3 days.

The equivalent dose of radiation do you guys not think before typing it's pretty basic stuff.

originally posted by: Unity_99
I'd say not getting eaten by the draco's there and being used as an offering by the corporations or something would be number one on anyone's list. We're already there.

I take it you have some proof of that like your ufo visit's I wont hold my breath

originally posted by: Thebel
It takes a while before we can build proper magnetic shielding for the spacecraft. It takes so much energy, that I think fusion reactor is required for the space ship. But it's possible at least in theory to protect space travelers from cosmic & solar particles using artificial magnetic field. The problem is very high energy consumption, mere solar panels won't do the trick, neither fission batteries some spacecraft (New Horizons, Voyagers I and II) have.

And the trip to Moon was just few days journey, it won't kill you. To get Mars, 150 to 300 days journey is required, depending on the alignment of Earth and Mars, and speed of spacecraft. It's much longer time than to Moon.

well it does not take that much energy really. firstly the artificial magneto sphere is much smaller than the natural magnetosphere and the power drops inversely prportionaly as a cube power or even fourth power of the diameter of the sphere. the earths own magnetosphere is huge but only a half a gaus or was that a tesla? studies have been made of artificial magnetospheres for spacecraft and for lunar facilities. for space craft i think you are talking about 2 digit kilowatt range. well within the capabilities of solar power; fuel cells or of course a fission or fusion reactor. the big problem with the M2P2 (Dr Wing Lee's (of WU) baby) is the bleeding of plasma through leaks in the magnetic field coverage. The losses are small but significant over time as the leaked plasma has to be replaced and that means you need more tankage to store the gas that the plasma is generated from.
on the bright side a M2P2 magneto-plasma sphere acts as a nearly massless self repairing solar sail with extreme final velocity. just slightly less than the solar wind's velocity.

Thank you all for a very interesting thread, I just love ATS at these times. And not one cross word!

I was just wondering...why hasn't such technologty been put to Fukashima?
At least TRIED in order to contain it?

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Sources of radiation are different and it's caused even the soil and water to become radioactive. Nice thought though...

a reply to: Jenisiz

The casual way this was handled is absolutely MIND boggling to me.
A MELT down happened and the world yawned.

a reply to: cavtrooper7
Right lol...I still can't believe the world is still obsessing over Caitlyn Jenner. Priorities here are so f*cked up it's disturbing. Honestly, why even go to Mars when we can't even get things straight here? Let's spread our ideas of how a man getting a sex change deserves the courage award instead if Noah who came in second. How does a war hero cine home after losing limbs to accomplish all he did just to lose to a rich guy getting a sex change. Wtf?

a reply to: Jenisiz

We will not do A THING until we throw off the shackles of the Oligarch Bankers.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

I think that it is possible that we might be drifting away from the crux of this issue.

That is, of course, that any manned mission to Mars, done ethically and properly, will involve a much more effective, efficient means of propulsion, than any yet devised. If any one way element were to appear in the mission parameters, then the effort should be abandoned until propulsion adequate to the task of allowing a follow up, or rescue mission to be launched in addition to the first, and with a reasonable chance of arriving within a few WEEKS of the first being lofted.

Frankly, we are some way off it yet. I do not believe that if rocketry continues to be the mainstay of the launch, that enough money will be available to invest in the necessary research and development.

a reply to: wmd_2008

The only problem I had was they did not provide any sources, just simply stated it as fact.

Unfortunately, the mechanisms leading the development of these delayed effects are not well known and the magnitude of the assumed risk is not well characterized at this time, necessitating additional study of these particles on human physiology.
The Deep Space Radiation Environment

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: GodEmperor

If it's true they just went up and got exposed.

No guts no glory.

a reply to: Jenisiz

What about when they were walking on the moon? You also didn't explain how they were able to use film and not have it pre-exposed by solar radiation on a celestial body that has no protective atmosphere.

I'm still here trying to learn