Liquid on Mars, NASA Photos, up close SOL 0712

So, the armchair "experts" on ATS and other conspiracy forums are better at studying Mars than the scientists.

To me, it doesn't even look like damp ground, but if it does look like that to somebody else, it must be true.

a reply to: wildespace

did you try emailing them about the website? find out what happened to the wind and humidity data ?
don't expect a reply or it to be fixed though

funbox

originally posted by: wildespace
So, the armchair "experts" on ATS and other conspiracy forums are better at studying Mars than the scientists.

To me, it doesn't even look like damp ground, but if it does look like that to somebody else, it must be true.

It's not that, it's that NASA/JPL know a lot of things that they don't tell the public, so it's our duty to keep digging up the good stuff. What does it look like to you?

a reply to: wildespace

So, the armchair "experts" on ATS and other conspiracy forums are better at studying Mars than the scientists.

To me, it doesn't even look like damp ground, but if it does look like that to somebody else, it must be true.

I don't think anyone is purporting to be an "expert" here, and this isn't about any kind of conspiracy. It's about liquid on Mars, right? But it is true that the public are not told every single detail or shown every single photo or piece of footage those experts have, so in the absence of that we are left to conjecture. It doesn't make anything more or less true; it is simply a discussion of what is possible.

There is no need for derision or mockery just because people are posting what they see. I don't see damp ground either...I see depressions in the sand that are consistent with rivulets from liquid running/seepage. Does that make it true? No. It makes it my personal impression of what my eyes are seeing, based on personal experience with seeing things just like it on this planet.

Funny thing about large Government agencies like NASA, they are extremely compartmentalized. This works to their benefit and not ours. One guy doesn't know what the others are doing. It almost like Union workers at the docks in Long Beach, ask a guy to get you a flashlight, and he'll tell you that's not his job, ask the flashlight getter guy. So when these images pop up, people in house see them, one or two people maybe report them, but the other people don't care, because it's not their job to look for liquid on Mars, they each have specific jobs, and if something pops up that is outside of their spectrum, it gets ignored by them. That leaves we civilians responsible for gathering information.

Also any large entity, be it NASA, or any large corporation, they aren't going to discuss things they cannot yet explain. Somebody at NASA/JPL has obviously seen this already, plus who knows what else. The reason they don't talk about it is because they cannot explain it yet. They don't want to look like a bunch of dummies when we ask questions and they don't have answers. It will remain an internal thing, until they can explain every bit of it, which will be a long time from now, or never.

It's up to us to keep each other in the loop. Appreciate anybody that looks for hidden truths.

So I guess there are two possible scenarios:

1) NASA have found liquid water on Mars, but are keeping it secret from us for some nefarious purpose. (although why would they then publish these photos that so clearly show wet soil?)

or

2) NASA are blind to the evidence of liquid water on Mars, while the members of the public are finding it left and right.

I find either of the possibilities very hard to believe.

originally posted by: wildespace
So I guess there are two possible scenarios:

1) NASA have found liquid water on Mars, but are keeping it secret from us for some nefarious purpose. (although why would they then publish these photos that so clearly show wet soil?)

or

2) NASA are blind to the evidence of liquid water on Mars, while the members of the public are finding it left and right.

I find either of the possibilities very hard to believe.

I'm fairly certain there are already articles which state that NASA is "speculating" there is liquid on Mars. That means that they've found it, but have no way to fully encompass the description of it. So many variables they need to figure out first. But we the people don't care about that as much, we like to know things that are still mysterious. I really hope you don't buy everything NASA says. It's not in their nature to make things public, they literally don't give a **** if we know what they do. They have no interest in us knowing ANYTHING. The only reason they share things with us, if because they need the publics support to keep the funding going. They dribble out little bits of info to keep people guessing. People guessing is a powerful thing.

This is also why I don't start a thread and just talk about everything I know. It's information that makes perfect sense to people in the know. But sounds like complete jargon if you think we evolved from apes. I'm not here to "sell" anybody on what really goes on out there. Although I do get into at-length discussions with people about it in person, but only those people looking for answers. I've even taken people out to watch the UFO craft fly around, with military night vision, it's quite remarkable. But I'm not about to make a thread saying all these saucer craft are real, just because I watch them. People need to have their own personal experiences in order to believe things are real.

In this instance I feel these images showcase evidence of what I already know to be true. So I wanted to share. I hope ATS keeps the ball rolling for many years to come.

originally posted by: wildespace
So I guess there are two possible scenarios:

1) NASA have found liquid water on Mars, but are keeping it secret from us for some nefarious purpose. (although why would they then publish these photos that so clearly show wet soil?)

or

2) NASA are blind to the evidence of liquid water on Mars, while the members of the public are finding it left and right.

I find either of the possibilities very hard to believe.

Clearly you don't read responses to your posts.

PASADENA, Calif. -- Observations from NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter have revealed possible flowing water during the warmest months on Mars.

www.nasa.gov...

Nasa's Curiosity rover has found that water can exist as a liquid near the Martian surface.
Scientists think thin films of water form when salts in the soil, called perchlorates, absorb water vapour from the atmosphere.

lead scientist on REMS, told BBC News the detection was indirect but convincing: "What we see are the conditions for the formation of brines on the surface.
www.bbc.com...

New measurements of Martian weather and soil conditions suggest the soil is damp with liquid brine,

rt.com...

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: wildespace
So I guess there are two possible scenarios:

1) NASA have found liquid water on Mars, but are keeping it secret from us for some nefarious purpose. (although why would they then publish these photos that so clearly show wet soil?)

or

2) NASA are blind to the evidence of liquid water on Mars, while the members of the public are finding it left and right.

I find either of the possibilities very hard to believe.

Thanks for the links!

Clearly you don't read responses to your posts.

PASADENA, Calif. -- Observations from NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter have revealed possible flowing water during the warmest months on Mars.

www.nasa.gov...

Nasa's Curiosity rover has found that water can exist as a liquid near the Martian surface.
Scientists think thin films of water form when salts in the soil, called perchlorates, absorb water vapour from the atmosphere.

lead scientist on REMS, told BBC News the detection was indirect but convincing: "What we see are the conditions for the formation of brines on the surface.
www.bbc.com...

New measurements of Martian weather and soil conditions suggest the soil is damp with liquid brine,

rt.com...

In all honesty I have to say that in this image it really does look like a running liquid, and not like sand displacement. Very interesting.

The Martian surface is quite interesting in itself. Radiation causes a thin 'crispy' cover - much like a crème brûlée. I'm actually finding it hard to believe that a small trickle of sand caused by slippage (my initial assessment) would break the surface and reveal the darker material below.

a reply to: Char-Lee

Using terms like "possible", or mentioning conditions that allow for formation of such liquids, is not the same as actually finding liquids. Possibilities and guesses are one thing, but the fact remains that (as far as science results from Mars can be trusted), no decising evidence of liquid water has been found, including any data from Curiosity.

So saying that there is wet soil seen in Curiosity's photos is nothing more than imagination.

With so many Curiosity photos showing this dark material exposed by the wheels or the scoop in many different places on its journey, it's very certain that we're looking at dark sand or dust.

If Curiosity came across a damp patch of soil and failed to register it with its instruments, it would be a major failure for a mission of such importance and complexity. I think people here are doing a huge disservice to the science teams involved by implying that they either can't see evidence of liquid water in front of their nose, or that they do see it but decide to keep it secret from the public.

I wouldn't put too much weight in the RT healine "NASA’s Curiosity finds liquid water below Mars’ surface", as RT is just another MSM. The actual NASA quote is "The measurements, based on a full year’s study of the planet’s temperature and humidity by NASA’s Curiosity rover, indicate that conditions at the Gale Crater are “favorable for small quantities of brine to form.”" ... that is all. Favourable conditions, but no definite sign of such liquids or wet soil so far.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
Clearly you don't read responses to your posts.

So far, the responses have been mostly about NASA not telling us the whole story, keeping things hidden from us, etc.

a reply to: wildespace

1) NASA have found liquid water on Mars, but are keeping it secret from us for some nefarious purpose. (although why would they then publish these photos that so clearly show wet soil?)

Why does it have to be a nefarious purpose? Why can't it just be something as simple as not wanting to make certain things public until they are certain of what the data is telling them? Maybe they're on to something significant to the future of life on this planet and don't want to have a bunch of info out there that could potentially cause a panic or something like that. Our government is very involved with NASA, and they are fond of treating us like children, holding back information...it could be nefarious, or it could just be they don't think we could handle all of that at once...which has been their justification in the past. Publishing a few photos to calm the savage beast and lull us back into complacency would be in keeping with that line of reasoning.

If Curiosity came across a damp patch of soil and failed to register it with its instruments, it would be a major failure for a mission of such importance and complexity. I think people here are doing a huge disservice to the science teams involved by implying that they either can't see evidence of liquid water in front of their nose, or that they do see it but decide to keep it secret from the public.

Also, why does it have to be liquid water? I've not read every single comment on the thread but I don't remember anyone saying that this must be water...it's a completely alien landscape so who knows what kind of liquid substances exist there? Just that it very much looks like some kind of liquid under the crust is seeping up and creating rivulet-type depressions in the sand, which it does.

I think it's doing a huge disservice to the public to say that just because we're not NASA scientists that we cannot recognize the difference between shifting sand discoloration and depressions in the crust caused by something wet collapsing it inward, when it is right here in front of our faces too. It seems far more likely that they are not divulging every single bit of photo and other data because either they don't want to until they've got a concrete explanation or because they are being prevented from releasing the info by some type of governing body who, for whatever reason, does not want it to be revealed.

a reply to: tigertatzen

When the team that seemed to discover neutrinos travelling faster than light and were confused by the data - they made all of it publicly available. When NASA discovered bright areas on Ceres, they immediately made the images available and held a press conference. Neither are exactly conspiratorial! I think you views of NASA's track record, and NASA's actual track record, aren't exactly aligned.

a reply to: MarsIsRed

interesting that ,would this coating then act as a potential insulator?.. does anyone know if the rover has taken soil temperature reading to any degree ? on top of and below ?

funbox

a reply to: funbox

Unfortunately no rovers have the capability to test temperatures within the surface. Worse still, I fear we won't know until an actual geologist (like Harrison Schmitt) actually stands on Mars.

Please note that I'm not claiming that these images are proof of liquids on Mars - there's no actual evidence apart from the tantalising images from Phoenix - but they sure seem so! We have to remember that the Martian atmosphere is massively thinner than Earth's, and it's gravity is just one third. What we see, on Earth, here does not necessarily correspond to what happens on Mars!

a reply to: MarsIsRed

no probes to test the soil temps eh, and mission objectives are to see if conditions where favourable to life, ive not been this disappointed since I found out there's no mic on board,

see, this is the problem when you let scientists with too finer mental parameters to design a mission , a more expansive, imaginative approach is needed

funbox

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: MarsIsRed

no probes to test the soil temps eh, and mission objectives are to see if conditions where favourable to life, ive not been this disappointed since I found out there's no mic on board,

see, this is the problem when you let scientists with too finer mental parameters to design a mission , a more expansive, imaginative approach is needed

funbox

The trouble is, of course, the more you try to do the more expensive it becomes! I'm totally in favour of 'serious' rovers been sent to Mars, but I also understand the concessions that have to be made.

On a related note, in reality we (as in humans) have to send drilling rigs to be able to take 20+ metre soil samples. This would weigh a LOT (!) - far too much for a robotic mission. It would need international support to land a whole host of support hardware, followed be people, to accomplish.

a reply to: MarsIsRed

When the team that seamed to discover neutrinos travelling faster than light and were confused by the data - they made all of it publicly available. When NASA discovered bright areas on Ceres, they immediately made the images available and held a press conference. Neither are exactly conspiratorial! I think you views of NASA's track record, and NASA's actual track record, aren't exactly aligned.

Once again, what does conspiracy have to do with this? No one is saying anything about a conspiracy except for those who are trying to convince the rest of us that we are somehow incapable of making visual comparisons between what we're seeing in the photos and what we have seen with our own eyes, right in front of us, on our own planet.

I don't have any interest in NASA's track record, nor have I mentioned such a thing. I have said many, many times (in fact, in the same post you quoted me from) that I seriously doubt NASA has some agenda; that if they're holding back it's because they have a good reason for it. If anyone is doing anything to deliberately hide something for some unsavory purpose, it'll be someone in our own government, not NASA. But if NASA were prohibited from disclosure by some agency like that, they would comply because it would be in their very best interest to do so. They can't continue their work if they lose funding. And we don't know that is even happening...it's simply another possibility. There are a whole lot of "ifs" there...anything is possible.

a reply to: MarsIsRed

did you think I was talking about finding out the core's temperature ? no a simple probe on an existing robotic arm may have sufficed, the potential of understanding what happens under the crust with temperatures may have been useful to understanding local conditions within the creator , ah well , the next badass robots under construction ,, hopefully with a few more bells and whistles

funbox