The Quran wasn't a book, it was speech.

a reply to: ElectricFeel

It was a actually a song. It was a song by the angel Gabriel to the messenger who would come after Mohammed and lead the world to the true faith.

The Koran provided guidance to the people of the time, but was predicting a future prophet who would reconcile the OT, NT and Koran.

What is the true faith? Islam, Surrender/Submit

Islam is not a word that was intended by the prophet to cause separation. Islam simply means to submit/surrender your will to Allah, If a Jew or Christian has surrender thier will to, "God, YWHW, Jesus. They are part of those who call themselves Islam. Since Islam translates to surrender/submit.

The Koran does not teach religion, it teaches faith in Islam (surrendering your will to the divine so that you can overcome transgressions).

Even the rituals are only requied to be performed by those who have the means and ability. It is possible to not observe any of the rituals in the Koran and still adhere to the message, because it is not a religion.

There is no reason to separate ourselves.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Holy Spirit, our internal guide to our father. Declared to be such by all 3 texts.

a reply to: ElectricFeel

How do you (and/or the Koran) reconcile the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus died to pay for the sins of the world... That whoever believes in His sacrifice will have eternal life? The OT Law had the Passover to foreshadow the Cross, and the NT looks back at the Cross in awe. The Bible teaches that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Allah is not in the bible, and Ishmael was never the chosen son in the Bible either. I don't see how anyone can lump the Koran and Bible together as one codex. They are diametrically opposed.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Thanks for that. I do have trouble wrapping my head around how something so huge with multitudes of verses could realistically hold up to being recited century after century without errors or some type contamination of messages.

It would be like trying to memorize the entire works of Shakespeare, or even the entire Bible. It would be something that for me, would be impossible. I could tell "Bible stories", or explain the gist of most any book in the Bible, but memorize the whole thing? Not this cookie. : )

Just wanted to know your thoughts............. thanks.

ETA:

For someone born into the Arabic language & generations of recitation it would be nigh on impossible to corrupt...

Still trying to make this "fit" into something I can digest a little easier. I suppose if starting at early childhood, and it was my "job" my life's work - to memorize it, maybe I could.
Oh, reminds me of that Denzil Washington movie "The Book of Eli". Neither here nor there, just sayin'. Good futuristic movie. : )

And yet the Quran is memorised by 100 000's Muslims all over the world. Wich book with 77437 words or 323671 letters can be memorised by so many normal people like you and I ? Isn't that an miracle in itself? The Quran is designed to be easily memorised, this can not be a man-made book my friend.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
Still trying to make this "fit" into something I can digest a little easier. I suppose if starting at early childhood, and it was my "job" my life's work - to memorize it, maybe I could.

It really isn't that hard. Throughout the muslim world, even among people who almost don't understand a word of arabic, there are loads of people who've totally memorised the Quran, and they certainly didn't make it their life's work (likely just lessons in the evening every day). In those places, what is much rarer is someone who's memorised the meaning of the Quran. I myself, as a non-arab who can barely understand a few words of arabic, can recite by heart arount 9-10 of the 114 surahs of the Quran.

As has been mentioned before, the Quran has a certain rhythmic lyrical aspect that makes memorisation very easy. Comparisons to memorising the Bible is a bit problematic, because (aside from one or two books) it lacks that lyrical aspect (never mind the other issues), and there never was that tradition of recitation for the Bible. Try thinking of it more along the lines of memorising a book of poetry, or even a long poem, or some of your favourite songs- in a similar way, I can recite much of Coleridge's Kubla Khan or even all of The Lady of Shalott.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

To answer your question Let's look at verse 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." The false charge against Mary was that she was unchaste. Such a charge is bad enough to make against any woman, but to make it against Mary, the mother of Jesus, was to bring into redicule Allah's power itself. Islam is specially strong in guarding the reputation of women. Slanderers of women are bound to bring four witnesses in support of their accusation, and if they fail to produce four witnesses, they are be flogged with eighty stripes and debarred forever from being competent witnesses.

With all due respect but I have trouble understanding how you can believe that our beloved prophet Jesus died for our sins? Islam tells us that every single person will be responsible for what he or she did.. The only one that can forgive you is the one and only God = Allah that made Jesus and all the other prophets.

"And when God will say: ‘O Jesus, did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides God?’ He will reply: ‘Glory be to Thee! it was not for me to say what I had no right to say. If I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen. I said to them naught save as Thou didst command me: Serve God, my Lord and your Lord; and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die Thou wast the Watcher over them. And Thou art Witness of all things’." (5:116, 117)

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Awesome link! Thanks.

Most of the Bible versus (Greek) are written the same way. The last sentence echos/reflects/is directed at the first sentence, sort of a butterfly affect.

a reply to: ElectricFeel

There is also a verse in the Koran that says, if the Koran was not from Allah you would certainly find contradictions (to the previous scriptures) within.

I have read 3 different interpretations of the Koran, because some bias does exist in the interpretations. I have read the OT and NT and one only needs to believe that Jesus is the Holy Spirit and that God is his father.

When you realize that Jesus claims both to be created and to be the Light, He is not claiming that he is equal to the father.

The Koran only stands against the false interpretation of the trinity, because none are equal to Allah. Jesus is the son of God, not equal to Allah, nor begotten by him.

In Genesis God said let there be light and their is. This is the account of the creation of our messiah. Mohammed said God only says BE, and this agrees with the account of Genesis.

All three texts teach a very simple message. The Holy Spirit is in you, it is the voice of reason within your conscious that guides you to love and to spiritual perfection.

The OT links the Christ to the Holy Spirit, In The New Testament Chtist calls himself the Light and fulfils the identical role of the Holy Spirit. And the Koran links Jesus to the Holy Spirit.

But for those who refuse that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said thay those who speak against the son of god will be forgiven, but those who forsake the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

The Koran tells its followers not to follow what the Christians and Jews follow because both substituted ritual salvation for faith and righteousness that leads to spiritual perfection.

The Christians actually teach that we are fallen. If someone believes they are an imperfect failure until their physical death, then then have not believed in the Holy Spirit, "the one who came to take away the sins". The Holy Spirit leads to spiritual perfection and the freedom from the bonds of sin. We may not be born perfect, but perfection lives in us, so it must be possible.

The stone the builders rejected, spiritual perfection.

There is also another message in the Koran about the Christians and Jews falsely ascribing children to Allah. This is not a contradiction as it has been presented by others.

The song of Moses says that the corrupt should not consider themselves sons of Allah. Jesus went one step further calling the corrupt sons of Satan. So when Mohammed says that those who have accepted ritual salvation over righteousness are not children of Allah, he is only repeating what was revealed before him.

Allah is not pleased by mere ritual, it is only those who obey that have the right to call themselves children of Allah.

The Jews and Christians have accepted ritual sacrafice for the forgiveness of sins and have abandoned the pursuit of spiritual perfection.

Jesus Christ was without sin, the Holy Spirit within you. If perfection lives in us, how can we continue to sin.

Know this about the church that teaches ritual salvation. In Acts the Holy Spirit came upon those who were not baptized in water, proving that only faith is necessary.

And "Allah does not talk to sinners", so that you know for certain that those who teach the doctrine of fallen men, have never spoken to Allah.

Because Allah only speaks to the obedient, those who have been adopted into the kingdom of Allah, and his only son, who he declared to be Messiah.

Thier are no contradictions in the books, but many contradictions come from the mouths of those who wish to collect your tithes each week.

a reply to: ElectricFeel

With all due respect but I have trouble understanding how you can believe that our beloved prophet Jesus died for our sins? Islam tells us that every single person will be responsible for what he or she did.. The only one that can forgive you is the one and only God = Allah that made Jesus and all the other prophets.

But the New Testament itself repeats over and over again that Jesus died for our sins. It doesn't say that He appeared to die, but that He literally died. So, right there, there is a chasm between the Bible and Koran.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: ElectricFeel

How do you (and/or the Koran) reconcile the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus died to pay for the sins of the world... That whoever believes in His sacrifice will have eternal life? The OT Law had the Passover to foreshadow the Cross, and the NT looks back at the Cross in awe. The Bible teaches that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Allah is not in the bible, and Ishmael was never the chosen son in the Bible either. I don't see how anyone can lump the Koran and Bible together as one codex. They are diametrically opposed.

The Koran calls Jesus Messiah, which means savior. What it says is those who say "we believe" in Jesus, Moses or any prophet, but continue to sin will have no helper on the day of judgment.

Jesus promised forgiveness to those who would repent and turn away from sin. Jesus did not promise forgiveness to anyone because they merely performed a ritual.

The promise of forgiveness that was given to us by Jesus, was the same promise given by both Moses and Mohammed.

This is a message from me to the world "Allah is merciful if you repent and make your ways right you will be forgiven."

Did I did forgive you? Do have the right to say that? If you believe the texts than every believer can promise that to anyone.

Jesus died for our sins. We also die for our sins. It would have been impossible for him to die for his own sins, since he was without sin, and the penalty of death only comes to those who sin. So he sacrificed his flesh, to our sins, to teach us how to overcome them, the sacrifice of oneself for the betterment of humanity.

The bible teaches that God is one and Jesus is two.

God who cannot be tempted did not become the son so he could be tempted in every way we are.

God is Love and the creation of God's son was necessary to teach us about Love.

When it says God does not tempt nor can he be tempted, this is showing us the static nature of love.

Without, action, Love is. Love itself does not call to you, Love itself is not tempted to follow you into transgressions.

But Love is so more than a static word. So to demonstrate that love is both static, never changing, and active always pursuing, he created the Light.

The sinner knows love because love is static and is never tempted.

But only those who are active in the pursuit of Love connect to the Holy Spirit.

God is Love
The Holy Spirit is the shepherd that calls you to Love. Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit, the Son of God. Not equal to him.

All you have to do is accepted that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, because Acts portrays both Jesus and the Holy Spirit as the shepherd. Jesus never said he was equal to his father, only the church taught you that.

Ishmael was chosen to be nation that would always be against all his brothers. Islam has fulfilled the prophecy, it stands against everyone.

Their is only one God, Elohim, Allah. Three texts, three different titles, seems ok to me, since you must already be comfortable with the first two.

Forget trinity and pursue spiritual perfection through the indwelling of the one who was without sin. The son of God, who is not nor did he claim to be equal to his father.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but rather fear the ONE who can kill both body and spirit." This was Jesus talking about his father, and he is not speaking third person.

Jesus is the perfect spiritual light created in Genesis. The first act of creation, and by the light, for the light and through the light we were all created.

None of this is contradicted in any of the texts.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Maybe you didnt read my last post. I quoted verses from the Bible that bluntly state that Jesus paid for our sin with His own life unto death. We have all been forgiven of our sins. The question is do you accept that forgiveness or do you seek to justify yourself with dead works?

Anyways, my point remains that the Koran does not go hand in hand with the Bible. One of them is flawed, and my faith is in the Bible.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

They're no more diametrically opposed than the OT and the NT. If I understand correctly it's like Part III of the Abrahamic triology with Muhammad being the continuation of a line of prophets going back to Abraham and including Noah, Moses and Jesus who are all revered.

Mary is also revered in Islam (and if I'm not mistaken, understood to have been immaculately conceived). The virginal birth of Jesus, his performing of miracles, having disciples, delivering the gospel (the NT basically, recognized in the Quran as being the word of God) to God's (aka Allah's) people and his eventual ascension into Heaven are all part of Islamic doctrine.

What they don't believe is that Jesus died (either somebody else was actually crucified or he was ascended before he died, depending on interpretation) or that he was God or the son of God (any more than Adam).

Have you considered that what you're saying about Islam, a Jew could easily say about Christianity? What I can never understand, as an atheist, is why people who are worshiping the same deity often have less tolerance for one another's faiths than I do.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

It is possible to both die and not die.

The physical dies.
The spiritual body does not.

Christ did not experience death, but his flesh did. When Jesus said "it is finished", he made the choice to give his spirit to his father and let the physical die.

In this way he both died, but did not experience it. In acts Stephen gives up his spirit and fulfills the prophecy. "Some of you will not TASTE death before I come again". Notice he did not say some of you will be immortal in flesh, just that thier was a way to escape the experience of death.

In this world Allah has provided a way for the spiritually minded to give up their spirits and thus avoid the taste of dying, even though thier flesh does perish.

This was actually a custom amongst some of the Native American tribes, proving that it can be done.

a reply to: theantediluvian

The NT fulfills the OT, they do not contradict. The Koran, on the other hand does a very poor job at trying to co-op the Bible.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Just wondering how killing people with different life styles does not contradict Loving others?

a reply to: Isurrender73

No, Jesus had to die twice on the Cross. First His spirit died when sin entered Him, then His spirit was revived when it was finished and His body died. Man was first created as body, soul, and spirit. When Adam sinned, his spirit died and his body began aging. This is why God said "dying ye shall die". This is also why Jesus said we must be born again (of spirit and water). Under the adamic curse, we are all born with dead spirits, so it was Jesus' spiritual death that finished it, His physical death facilitated His resurrection.

a reply to: Akragon

Different lifestyles indeed. Like child sacrifices? Is that what you mean?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I was thinking more along the lines of bratty children, fortune tellers...

Maybe even the occasional non hedrosexual sinner

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Who cares if you are quoting the NT bible for your point? You can quote whoever you want, that doesn't make it true. None of the NT was written until after the fall of the second temple anyway, written in hindsight. What about the Gnostic texts? You know, the ones that call out Paul, or say that Jesus didn't die. The first 500 years of Christianity was replete with doctrinal disputes, and Jewish Christians and Gnostics escaped East to escape the trinitarian European dogma that forms the basis of NT interpretation till today. The Middle East and all types of Christianity that was eradicated (scriptures too!) from the European canon. So you can quote the NT all day long but many Muslims would say, since even the Gospels in the NT don't agree with each other in every detail, that errors and mistakes were in the written accounts. While historians can not be sure that the Qur'an is exactly like it was spoken by Muhammad, they are more sure of that than for ANY other religion. The transmission of the OT and NT are laughable in comparison to the historical record of the Qur'an being passed down.

Believe what you want to believe. But don't trying to sound like your winning a debate by acting like your scripture is the truth and all other beliefs are propaganda. For many people, the Qur'an saying what it says, being a continuation of the mystics, gnostics, and Christian sects that were eradicated by the Romans is the litmus test for the NT and not the other way around.. So .. oh, your NT says this that contradicts the Qur'an? Well than the NT is clearly mistaken (and it is historically shaky..) So no one wins that argument either way. This is an Islam thread though, ...

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Isurrender73

Maybe you didnt read my last post. I quoted verses from the Bible that bluntly state that Jesus paid for our sin with His own life unto death. We have all been forgiven of our sins. The question is do you accept that forgiveness or do you seek to justify yourself with dead works?

Anyways, my point remains that the Koran does not go hand in hand with the Bible. One of them is flawed, and my faith is in the Bible.

I accepted Grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches me all things, from within myself.

The Holy Spirit is perfect and it speaks to me. The Spirit of selfishness still whispers in my ear from time to time, but I have overcome him through Christ Jesus, who said "obey my father and sin no more."

Christ did not lie when he prayed to the father. He prayed for eath to be like heaven.

How can we ever make this happen if its impossible to overcome sin? Thier is no sin in heaven.

When we are children we are not capable of understanding this perfect obedience. But as we get older and develop a relationship with the Holy Spirit, the call is to righteousness. To be LIKE him. A sinner is not Like Christ. But one who has overcome sin through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does indeed become Like him. Able to defeat Satan and overcome sin.

You are stronger than Satan, if Christ is in you than you are also wiser. If you are stronger and wiser than Satan than how can he influence you to sin?

Again, only the trinity and ritual salvation contradict the Koran. But thier is no trinity and Jesus himself said that God was not pleased with mere ritual, "sacrafice and offerings."

You can believe men who need your money, or someone giving you the truth for free. Im not asking you to give up Christ, nor the Holy Spirit.

What I am asking is for you to give up the self righteousness that says God loves me more than you because of what I believe.

"God does not show favoritism". "If a man who is unfamiliar with the law in your book does by nature what is required, to sacrafice himself for humanity, then won't he be credited as a believer?

And the one who has the book and performed the rituals, if he continues to sin and be disobedient, wont he be treated as a sinner?

Thier is no "Original Sin". You are not trapped below Satan, who is the father of sin. Unless you believe in "Original Sin".

Those who believe in Original Sin are trapped in a lie by their own mind.

Confucius is quoted as saying when he was 60 he was able to walk the path (of righteousness) and no longer think about. It was by nature for him to overcome any thought of sin that might come whispering into his ear. For Confucius Satan lost all power by the time he was 60.

I pray that my walk may be made perfect like his. So that like Confucius and many others I can become Like Christ.

The Koran teaches righteousness, Jesus teaches righteousness, Moses teaches righteousness.

The church teaches original sin.

Take your pick, do you believe sin or do believe in the one who came to take away your sin?

This is the only contradiction, this the maddening wine that so few of the water baptized are willing to put down. You cannot drink out of the cup of sin and the cup of righteousness, and Christ is the cup of righteousness.

originally posted by: Legman

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

If I tried to recite it myself it would be littered with illiteracy & mistakes...

For someone born into the Arabic language & generations of recitation it would be nigh on impossible to corrupt...

The Quran, in Arabic, pretty much rhymes from beginning to end.
That is what the OP & myself were alluding to with likening the Quran to Poetry.


However...
The message itself can be and has been corrupted by individuals the world over for their own anti-spiritual or political gains.

I probably read the same version of the Quran as some ISIS members...
But I'll never comprehend their antithetical approach to Islam.

You are selling yourself short. I still speak and write arabic. Its easier than spanish. Im sure you are a rockstar at it.

Arabic is NO WAY easier than Spanish, and you are probably the only one I have ever heard say that. Quite the opposite.

Spanish is a romance language and is very close to other European languages. Even English shares a ton of words that are only slightly altered in Spanish. Psychology= psychologia. Geography= geografia.

People that are not from an Arabic speaking culture have an incredibly difficult time mastering it, whereas Spanish is considerably easier to pick up.

Moreover, the alphabet is the same and how the words look.