Apocalyptic Revelations...

a reply to: pthena

Quote,
But Christianity did not speak of anything like "in a thousand years will come ... and in 2000 years will come ...". Rather, Christianity and its Christ, and Judaism which developed along side of it presented themselves as end-all/be-alls until the "age to come".

That prophesy does actually exist but it is in a Old testament book though. Here's the prophesy to consider.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

2nd Peter 3 (Restating Psalms 90-4)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Upshot? Israel and Judah were to be torn down for 2 days/2000 years and then be restored for a day/1000 years. That "day" being the day of Jezreel of Hosea 1.

Combining this with Matthew 24 and I getting that the 2 days would be over between 2025 and 2028 approximately.

a reply to: scrambledpotatoes

The biggest problem is the nature of ethics.

Is a person evil for not helping people?

a reply to: ImaFungi

Any idea what is written on the sides of the books in Plato and Aristotles hands?

Plato’s Timaeus, Aristotle's Ethics.

The popular idea that the rhetorical gestures of Plato and Aristotle are kinds of pointing (to the heavens, and down to earth) is very likely. But Plato’s Timaeus – which is the book Raphael places in his hand – was a sophisticated treatment of space, time, and change, including the Earth, which guided mathematical sciences for over a millennium. Aristotle, with his four-elements theory, held that all change on Earth was owing to motions of the heavens. In the painting Aristotle carries his Ethics, which he denied could be reduced to a mathematical science.
en.wikipedia.org...

See also: The_Parnassus also by Raphael in the same room.

a reply to: TheCretinHop

I could say farts are different from the gas inside your belly and it could be true or it could not be true. Depends on how you look at it

I'm not a chemist, but from experience I know that the chemical make up of burps and farts are normally quite different. I have also, upon occasions of gastro-intestinal illness, experienced what may be called "farting out of my mouth" due to bacterial activity in the stomach which is generally reserved for intestines. Under such circumstances I usually try to stay away from people. See The Smell of Farts

But that's the progressive thing to do, move away from the wisdoms of old ones established. Soon people won't care about Ghandi and just consider him a wierd spiritual person.

Very good point. There was a time when Bible readers had no idea that many aspects of the deity portrayed were those of the old established Sumerian Enki. Similarly, even today, the pre-Christian civilized Greco-Roman culture including laws and ethics and science are called Pagan, by people who don't know what Pagan means.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

There are fundamental differences between the emphasis of Zarathustra and his doctrine of free will in choosing truth over falsehood as the path that determines one's fate and the Buddah's consideration that self identity was an illusion and impediment to Oneness, he saw no value in giving up one's most precious possession the soul and encouraged all effort to nurture it.

I was reading up on the texts of Zoroastrianism, and there was a warning about interpreting the older by the newer. In your opinion is the Wikipedia article on Zoroaster's philosophy correct?

Zoroaster emphasized the freedom of the individual to choose right or wrong and individual responsibility for one's deeds. This personal choice to accept aša or arta (the divine order), and shun druj (ignorance and chaos) is one's own decision and not a dictate of Ahura Mazda. For Zarathustra, by thinking good thoughts, saying good words, and doing good deeds (e.g. assisting the needy or doing good works) we increase this divine force aša or arta in the world and in ourselves, celebrate the divine order, and we come a step closer on the everlasting road to being one with the Creator. Thus, we are not the slaves or servants of Ahura Mazda, but we can make a personal choice to be his co-workers, thereby refreshing the world and ourselves.
Zoroaster#Philosophy

That would be contradictory with Islam's view of submission.

Also, reading one of the texts in translation, I got the impression that Quran origin was almost a copy of Old text origin.

I shall recognize Thee as strong and holy, Ahuramazda, when Thou wilt help me by the hand with which Thou holdest the recompenses that Thou wilt give, through the heat of Thy truth-strong fire, to the wicked man and the just - and when the might of Good Purpose shall come to me.
Avesta

Zoroaster informed by "Good Purpose"
Mohamed informed by "Angel Gabriel"

a reply to: pthena


Yes that all looks fine, the establishment of close relationship with the Ahuras, the difference between early and latter developments is that the Daevas weren't considered the personification of evil just not particularly helpful, so it was a case of choosing your Gods wisely, as such influence directly impacted upon your own spiritual development.

a reply to: ntech

The question is, as has been pointed out by the OP (original poster), whose agenda is furthered?

Hosea elevated the religion of Israel to the altitude of ethical monotheism, being the first to emphasize the moral side of God's nature. Israel's faithlessness, which resisted all warnings, compelled Him to punish the people because of His own holiness. Hosea considers infidelity as the chief sin, of which Israel, the adulterous wife, has been guilty against her loving husband, God. Against this he sets the unquenchable love of God, who, in spite of this infidelity, does not cast Israel away forever, but will take His people unto Himself again after the judgment.
Book of Hosea

Isn't it a rather narrow tribal confederacy being benefitted?

13:4"Yet I am Yahweh your God from the land of Egypt; and you shall acknowledge no god but me, and besides me there is no savior.
Hosea World English Translation

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Thank you very much for this thread.

I feel like I've been blind-sided. Not the direction I was expecting.

Always from East to West it seems. Now I'll think about it, or drink about it

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Hey, I sent you a message regarding your art work; Just writing this in case you were not purposefully ignoring it.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

research the lost tribes of Israel…

and you will find that those beyond the Euphrates were their descendants…they often fled the middle east to distant places(Scotland, Americas, India, China)…which explains why their traditions may have been similar…

and why the "Magi" who are led to the birth of Jesus, may have been descended from Levites, sent there to anoint the High Priest: Jesus.

a reply to: pthena

the Jews were "chosen" to remain pure in order to bring in a savior for the world… all of the Old Testament Laws were designed to keep the gene pool pure from the consequences of poor living, eating and thinking…

one example: all of the "unclean" animals have less efficient digestive systems than clean ones, tend to be bottom feeders, eat their own feces... and meat is more toxic...

Genes express based on environment and beliefs. (Dr. Bruce Lipton)

people who practice occultism, spirit worshipping, baal, etc can be altered genetically, especially generationally…to have doors open and "special gifts" that are actually generational curses… thus importance of blood lines to elites...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
A great revelation that i would like to discuss here is that the Biblical Apocalyptic tradition does not source back to the Hebrews but was rather a reinterpretation of the Prophetic tradition informed by Persian influence, …….
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It relates to the unveiling of the master plan over time and all the jollity along the trail, nobody said otherwise, except you.

The revealing of what you assume is the master plan through ANY form of religion is utter foolishness.It is you not me that is trying to propagate that foolish notion.If you are trying to decode the book of revelation and harmonize it with the religious traditions of the world that are completely false you will get what you paid for …nothing..

That is my point.You are reading into what John wrote which is not the reason it was written.It is the common malady of the times.The internet is not the fountainhead of knowledge and just because you “read” or even studied some articles or even books of ancient religious practices does not make you an expert or enlightened but is proof you know nothing of truth.Using information incorrectly to prove something right is wrong headed.

The fact is all of the stuff you are quoting is just religious belief and has no foundation in truth of reality whatsover.To believe what is written in the book of revelation is just a reinterpretation of of Persian prophecy influence is hubris of the highest order first because it is 100% speculation.You have ZERO idea what the book of revelation is about how could you or anyone possibly know it’s a reinterpretation of Persian prhohecey and all the other nonsense you are propagating in this thread.

I am not condemning you but merely pointing out the obvious.You are following your religious agenda just like billions of others and the fact is it is ALL false.I am merely denying your ignorance.I do not have to to know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to know you have no idea what the Truth is if you believe for a nano second it has anything to do with ANY religion.

My good friend and despicable atheist Pthena will gladly avail themselves to you in a sensible long drawn out friendly debate because that is his character. He will smother you with kindness and point out the gross inconsistencies of your arguments because that is his nature however the fact will remain you will still be ignorant of the truth as long as you believe the religious rhetoric you are espousing because that is the bottom line…it is ignorant religious rhetoric..nothing more.

Trying to harmonize religious rhetoric with anything else is a game of folly.The atheist know MUCH, MUCH more than the religious-religious.They know for a fact the “God” of man is a lie and even more so ALL the religions of man are lies.They do not have to prove anything because there is nothing to prove!If there is a creator God they cannot be known by ANY methodology.... especially religion.This is so simple a child could understand it…yet billions of grown adults are clueless.

The fact is the God man creates is 100% in their mind only.There is no possible way for man to know a true creator God “by” and through their infantile mind.You may as well try to teach physics to the grass growing in your backyard because they have a MUCH better chance of understanding it than man does of understanding a creator God through their feeble mind.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

this may also be due to over-generalization…

Book of Enoch says that in addition to fallen angels, all of the distorted spirit energies of pre-flood creation (think Tolkien: giants, elves, trolls, irks, etc…) ended up in the "second heaven"… this may explain the great diversity of beings there, even insects, and why not all of them act or appear evil…

there is a pyramidal structure that satan rules...

a reply to: Rex282

or there is Truth

“The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My mother taught me to seek all truth in the Bible.”
--Nikola Tesla

“(modern science) was born out of a Christian worldview.”
--J. Robert Oppenheimer “On Science an Culture”, Encounter, Oct. 1962

"My worldly faculties are slipping away day by day. Happy it is for all of us that the true good does not lie in them.
As they ebb, may they leave us as little children, trusting in the Father of Mercies and accepting His unspeakable gift.
I bow before Him who is Lord of all.”
--Michael Faraday, on his death bed, one of the greatest experimental philosophers, Doctorate from Oxford University, holding 97 unsought for distinctions who discovered Electricity

“Education is useless without the Bible.”
--Noah Webster, Webster’s Dictionary

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being.”
--Sir Isaac Newton, Principia, Book 3

a reply to: Rex282

The revealing of what you assume is the master plan through ANY form of religion is utter foolishness.It is you not me that is trying to propagate that foolish notion.If you are trying to decode the book of revelation and harmonize it with the religious traditions of the world that are completely false you will get what you paid for …nothing..

I never mentioned the Book of Revelations.

That is my point.You are reading into what John wrote which is not the reason it was written.It is the common malady of the times.The internet is not the fountainhead of knowledge and just because you “read” or even studied some articles or even books of ancient religious practices does not make you an expert or enlightened but is proof you know nothing of truth.Using information incorrectly to prove something right is wrong headed.

I never mentioned the Book of Revelations.

The fact is all of the stuff you are quoting is just religious belief and has no foundation in truth of reality whatsover.To believe what is written in the book of revelation is just a reinterpretation of of Persian prophecy influence is hubris of the highest order first because it is 100% speculation.You have ZERO idea what the book of revelation is about how could you or anyone possibly know it’s a reinterpretation of Persian prhohecey and all the other nonsense you are propagating in this thread.

I never mentioned the Book of Revelations, but anyway you are a very good example of an atheist and we have nothing to discuss.

a reply to: Rex282

My good friend and despicable atheist Pthena will gladly avail themselves to you in a sensible long drawn out friendly debate because that is his character.

I should have mentioned a little sooner that the flattering epithets that you use about me are really not necessary. I don't claim to have reached the lofty heights of atheism. In fact my daughter questioned me about my quest for atheism recently.

"This stuff you do on the forum," she asked, "how will that further your quest?"

My reply was, "I really don't care."

An example of my MO: I read that Zarathustra was known by reputation to Plato, therefore, I am currently reading Ethics of Aristotle.

a reply to: pthena

Actually no. They might have thought that when the prophecy came out but you have to look at Genesis 48 and 49 to see who is considered a "Israelite" by the end times.

Links.
Genesis 48 and Genesis 49

Essentially according to Genesis is that the Israelites would become nations and that Ephraim would become a multitude of nations. And that goes back to the earlier promises made to Abraham in Genesis 13.

16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Essentially by the end times most if not all of the world is supposed to be linked back to Abraham. And there is this complication in Romans 11.

Link.
Romans 11

If you read it through what Paul is stating is that Christianity is an adoption program. Become a Christian and you are grafted into the family tree of Israel.

So considering adoption and genetics probably 90% plus of all the people of the world have the link back to Abraham and Israel by now.

a reply to: Verum1quaere

Genes express based on environment and beliefs. (Dr. Bruce Lipton)

“Bruce Lipton’s book is the definitive summary of the new biology and all it implies. It is magnificent, profound beyond words, and a delight to read. It synthesizes an encyclopedia of critical new information into a brilliant yet simple package. These pages contain a genuine revolution in thought and understanding, one so radical that it can change the world.”

Joseph Chilton Pearce, Ph.D.
The Biology-of-belief

Another method to change the World!

DNA for the elites!

I watched the movie Jupiter Ascending last night. I recommend it highly, must see!

What we could really use is more people like Jupiter Jones and Caine Wise.

a reply to: ntech

Gen. 48:5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
. . .
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
. . .
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

This is the revelation of the Israel god.

If someone were to tease out all the various attributes of the Hebrew god, eliminating those attributes borrowed from other more ancient deities, Sumerian for example, in order to discover the most primitive most uniquely Hebrew deity, this is who you end up with:

The deity that demands the death or at least passing over of every first born male, from Cain right up to Bathsheba's first born son. That is the unique Hebrew deity. Therefore I am glad to not be Hebrew. I owe him nothing, least of all, my firstborn.

a reply to: pthena

But Christianity did not speak of anything like "in a thousand years will come ... and in 2000 years will come ...". Rather, Christianity and its Christ, and Judaism which developed along side of it presented themselves as end-all/be-alls until the "age to come.

It does, if you interpret texts with an open mind. For example Luke 22:10, "Jesus replied, As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters"

Tells of new messiah during Age of Aquarius, the water bearer.

Kantzveldt.. Wonderful thread, love learning new stuff about origins of religious thought.