god is the judge...

a reply to: Ghost147

I disagree. Predestination does not override free will. Prophecy simply reveals the choices we will make given a specific set of circumstances, but the choice is never made for us. Rather, God elects those who willingly choose to follow His will. Just because God knows all possibilities does not mean you are dismissed of your presonal responsibility to the choices you make.

The real illusion is the false notion that you have no choice. You always retain some level of free will.

That is a logical fallicy. If there was "predestination" or "destiny" then even if there was free will, the outcome of all choices made would be the same. It is your destiny after all.

If God knows everything and all things then it knows what choices we are going to make, even before we make them. Considering God is supposedly infallible as well, then there is no way that we could actively choose something that it didn't already know we were going to choose.

Again, there is no such thing as free will if there is an all knowing God, or if prophecy/destiny exists. It simply does not make logical sense.

The new testament is a bunch of gibbled garbage. The old testament is a repeat of Summarian. And the Summarian is gibbled garbage left over from Civs that survived the Ice-Age. Ice Age was After the last Destruction. So when you think about it. Everything stems back 30,000 years and beyond. You think some nutty book written 2000 years ago has any relevance to monuments of stone existing for 12,000 years? 6x the time since the Roman Empire created the story of Jesus around Mythas in 30AD?

You think the summarians 6000 years ago in 4000 BC had all the answers when the destruction was 10,000s years ago?

If any of this sinks in, then you would realize that there is minor inkblots of truth within all these Fan fiction writtings of the Gods or rather supreme leader of the Gods ect.

But Even Anu in Summaria is not even the real god because as mentioned. It's just as much of a falacy as the bible is... Because the bible is based on it.

Unless you want to believe everything is just a simulation and those stories are generated for lore purposes, with planet Earth being younger than what it actually is thought to be because we are just playing out a video game with preloaded lore. But who wants to live in a matrix anyways?

a reply to: Ghost147

No, free will does exist. What you are observing, is that free will cannot be used to defeat an all knowing God. That is the nature of the conflict between God and Satan. Satan wants to replace, God, but in order to do that, he has to beat God at His own predestination game.

So again, free will exists, you just can't use it to out smart God. There is a difference there.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Yeah except you'd think Satan would know how it ends. I mean if all the Christians on Earth do.. If the guy had two brain cells to rub together (or existed) he could easily know there is no replacing the Father and Son. So instead of trying to take God's place as Lord of this world- Oh wait.. God pretty much gave him free reign over this world anyway. To keep his literal God given hold over the Earth he could just say, screw prophecy!

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
So again, free will exists, you just can't use it to out smart God.

Is this backed up by scripture? Not sure, so I'm curious. Thanks.

Let's say it is backed up by scripture. Would that mean Satan is incapable of coming up with ideas to avoid fulfilling key points of prophecy? Or can he come up with them but no matter what, can't act on them? If he wants to refuse to bring about an anti-Christ does God force his will to do so? Does God make him do these evil things? IMO that would make more sense. Based on God's willingness to manipulate the free will of his creations.

a reply to: Belcastro

nowhere in the bible can i find why the war in heaven started between satan and archangel michael in revelation.

Your clear reason may not be in one part of Revelation.

Latest Hebrew to English --

Eth Cepher – YESHA ’ YAHU – Isaiah 14:12-15
(12) How art you fallen from heaven, O Heylel, son of the howling morning! How are you cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (13) For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of El.: I will sit also upon the Mount of the assembly, in the sides of the north: (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like EL ELYON. (15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.

The Satan Heylel (Jerome's Lucifer) entertained pride and desire for power such as his Creator Yahuah has. Rabbinic Judaism does not recognize Isaiah as pertaining to a Satan because in their belief an angel can not sin. To many people this is unacceptable but to the early Christians it is accepted.

originally posted by: BelcastroGod is the judge and And satan is the prosecutor or acuser and jesus is the defendant.....

This is absolutely incorrect and has no basis in truth whatsoever.There is no such “being” or entity Satan.The word satan means the adversary.It is not a fallen/rebellious angelic being(which also do not exist)that formally was the Archangel Lucifer.The word lucifer is written a sum total of ONE time in all the scriptures and is not a name(noun) it is an adjective and means light bearer.

The myth built up around demons and angels(means messenger) is completely false and extrapolated from the scriptures and created in the religious carnal mind because no such beings exist which leads to what is really happening.The adversary(satan) IS the religious carnal mind that is at enmity(war) with the creator God.There is no war between a being Satan and “his/her” minions the demons and the creator God.The only war is between the ears of man in their religious carnal mind.

It is the futile war you are fighting right now because it is only IN your mind.It is very real to you however it is a vain war.It cannot be won because it is ONLY in your mind.The only way it can end is when you know it is not truth.It is the battleground of all of mans conflicts that never ends without heavy casualties.

The only way to settle the dispute is 100% in the hands of the creator God.None can stop it on their own.The first step toward peace is “believing” it is only in your mind.However “belief” through faith cannot overcome it is only when you absolutely “know” it is a false war that it will end.There is nothing you can do to stop it.Religion,spirituality,philosophy,psychology,science etc etc only feeds the fires.The people who try those experience s only become more deluded to truth and BELIEVE they have been “enlightened” or have ascended above it however nothing could be further from the truth.

Fortunately ALL of mankind will be “cured” of this fatal disease once and for all. Unfortunately it will be after their physical death.Meanwhile the world will be in conflict/tribulation because everyone is fighting their own war in their mind and it “spills” out into other peoples war which has spilled out.

The Christian (and Muslim) perception of this religious construct is the driving force.They believe it is a final conflict between their “God”(that in truth is not real) and Satan and you are either on their God’s side or Satans.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Why doesn't Satan just thwart God's plans by refusing to bring forth an anti-Christ? That way he could defeat God by keeping prophecy unfulfilled and rule the world and man for eternity.

that...is a damn good question.

The construct of a being Satan is ludicrous.If there is a creator God this Satan being is on the level of existence of an amoeba and is ZERO threat to their “will”.

A person has more chance of being assaulted by “Sulley” the monster in their closet than Satan. Unfortunately anyone who believes in Satan or demons or Archons or demiurges, gray aliens etc etc ad nauseum will NEVER be convinced they don’t exist because they DO live INSIDE their mind!

If people could only keep those monsters in their head and not puke them out in EVERYTHING they do it would be a much more tolerable world however they don’t.The mere belief in faith of them causes them to “collapse” like a possibility wave form into existence and wreak havoc.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

You raise some excellent questions, many of which I have pondered myself.

1) If Satan knows God is omniscient and omnipotent, why would he even try to revolt in the first place? The bible teaches that Satan became obsessed with himself, so arrogance must be fuelling his motive.

2) Satan did try to disrupt prophecy, and the Church is proof. Jesus was supposed to be "cut off after" Daniel's 62nd Week, but if you count the SOLAR years, Jesus died 7 years early. As a result, Jesus established the Church as His body on earth, so that the Church would still fulfill the prophecy AFTER the 62nd Week, in His place. So essentially, God left a legal loophole in Daniel 9, in anticipation of Satan's strategy.

3) In the Exodus account, when Israel continued to rebel against God, Moses was offered the opportunity to be the new Patriarch of God's elect nation, if Moses would let Him destroy Israel. Moses made the choice to preserve Israel. That looks like free will to me. Then you have Abraham's rebellion when he fathered Ishmael. For me, free will and predestination are two sides of the same coin.

Free will determines how much time we have left. When the Church's time expires due to negative volition, the last 7 years of the 70 Weeks will play out. When Israel rejected Jesus, God scattered them when their Temple expired in 70 AD (Israel was 40 years late entering the Land, so the Temple stood 40 years after Jesus died). The Church was elected to relay the baton to the 144k saints of the 70th Week.

Mankind does not have a will free of cause.The will is a mechanism of “consciousness”(for lack of another word) that makes choices however NONE of those choices are free of causation.All event /effects have causes.They are born of a myriad multitude of causes that are completely unoriginal to the one who made a choice of their will.That is the basis of mankind NOT having a will that is “free” of cause.
It is as Einstein stated about reality..it is a very persistent illusion.

Man makes choices “by” their will but their will choice is NEVER the origins of the cause.The illusion (which is delusionment) is mans will is free.The delusionment of free will is common to ALL of mankind.From the religious-religious to the atheist believe the EXACT same thing.That they are the captain of their own ship and and their “will” is the rudder that THEY control by their choices.

That is the belief basis of ALL religion and is patently false.Common reason stares in the believers face yet the believer is completely blind and believe THEY have a will that is free.Nothing could be further from the truth.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Thanks for the interesting reply.

Though I wasn't addressing other attempts Satan may or may not have made to avert prophecy. My questions were about a very specific one that leads to his ultimate demise. According to common theology. Also, instances where God does not manipulate free will don't do anything to make a case against the fact that he does. Case in point, Pharaoh during the Exodus. The strong delusion, is another example of his declaration of his willingness to do so. Or God sending lying spirits into the mouths of prophets so that they speak falsely.

While you replied to my questions, I don't feel you actually addressed any of the points I was trying to make.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Well, like I said before, Satan's goal was to replace the Ancient of Ages (Father and Son) with his own dynasty, so for him to refuse to raise the Antichrist would be to plead guilty...and I dont see Satan changing his heart.

To understand Satan's relationships with the Antichrist, you must understand who the Antichrist is. The Antichrist is Apollyon and I believe him to be the genetic son of Satan through the line of Ham (by his wife). Satan literally raises Apollyon from the Pit of the Abyss after being kicked out of heaven. The falling star with the key to the Abyss is Satan himself, as described in the 5th Trumpet.

So,
1) Satan's plan has always been to the Ancient of Ages with his own son and himself.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 

2) Once Satan is kicked out of heaven, his only alternative to pleading guilty and taking forgiveness will be to proceed with his plans at the 5th Trumpet.

The hardening of hearts, decieving spirits and strong dilusions only take place after the truth is rejected by free will.

Pharaoh chose not to let the Jews go initially, so God let his heart become hard.

God told Israel not to listen to the prophets of Baal, so when they did, he gave them a taste of their own medicine.

The same will go for the strong delusion of the 70th Week. The strong delusion will be centered around the Antichrist, who doesn't appear until the 5th Trumpet. So mankind will see 4 Trumpet Judgement and hear a warning from angels in the sky before the strong delusion comes.

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

So, God does not make decisions for anyone, but once the decision is made it is amplified, whether by blessing or delusion.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Ghost147

No, free will does exist. What you are observing, is that free will cannot be used to defeat an all knowing God.

But that is exactly my point. We cannot defeat gods omniscience by choosing something he didn't know we would choose. So if he is omniscient all the time, then there is nothing we can do that god would not already know absolutely that we would do it. Omniscience and choice cannot coexist. I'm not quite sure how to explain my position any further.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Ghost147
That is the nature of the conflict between God and Satan. Satan wants to replace, God, but in order to do that, he has to beat God at His own predestination game.

Yes, I can agree to this. Within the bibles stories this statement is true. But, only because I view biblical scripture to be fictional, thus allowing for omniscience to exist in a being. Outside of the bible though, reality does not deal with gods.

a reply to: Ghost147

I don't understand why you would equate the absence of a kill switch for God with the absence of free will. Theoretically, if Noah and his family had chosen not to follow God, then Satan would have won right there. In the bible, man has always been the deciding factor. The fact is that God would not have created mankind without knowing who would be willing follow Him.

If God is just, then who can't omniscience coexist with free will.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Ghost147

I don't understand why you would equate the absence of a kill switch for God with the absence of free will. Theoretically, if Noah and his family had chosen not to follow God, then Satan would have won right there. In the bible, man has always been the deciding factor. The fact is that God would not have created mankind without knowing who would be willing follow Him.

If God is just, then who can't omniscience coexist with free will.

if that is truly the case, then come judgment day, every soul in the history of ever should be judged by a jury of his/her fellow peers. they will have all of history in every inch of space-time throughout the universe available to them to make their decision. that is what i would call justice. leave god out of it because frankly, he started the whole mess. like a diabolical cross between george martin and will wright (creator of sims game). and if our free will matters so damn much, i can think of no better use for it.