why should Islam be taken down.

Originally posted by devilwasp
zurvan

do you think islam is any worse than christianity?
Christianity has done far worse in the name of god, although we must know that the religion is not the evil but the people who conduct it are.
Take malcom X he believed islam should be just black people in america, BUT when he went to.....umm i think it was iran or somewhere.....he found out that many whites where there.
Religion is not simple and can't be solved by a simple answer such as "takeing it down"
America had a similar attitude to women not that long ago, although not as tough it restricted thier rights secretly.

I am not even comparing christianity to this. What has christianity got to do wiht my point? even if christianity was bad as you seem to be implying it doesn't make what Islam does right!


stating something that needs to be said is not a crime.

If you do not like the thread starter's view, that doesn't mean you call him "ignorant". The hypocrisy is pungent.

No, the thread will not be locked up, as he has not demanded the killing of Muslims or anything to that nature.

The only reason this thread should be locked up is because it is of stale content with the same stale responses.

Now, if you don't like what he says, move on back to the Christian-bashing threads that are so dearly loved at this site and that are not seen as ignorant or "racist" (Which they aren't no more than this thread is, as a religion is not a race. Quick, buy a dictionary) but are seen as "enlightened" and merely intelligent people expressing their opinion.

of course Muslims heck anybody is entitled to freedom of speech and religion, however, this freedom is curbed. You can not go out there a kill/ rob other people just because you want to! and claim that is your choice.

Muslims look at west as infidels. They doctrine is to convert everybody by force and these are the subjects that need to be changed. They can not go out there and kill people just because somebody didn't agree with their religion or decided to criticise them.

what happens when a Muslim refuses? well you have to define what kind of Muslim if they are a passive one that is not out there to kill all the infidels and convert everyone to Islam or in short they are happy to keep their religion personal then nothing. If they are like Bin Laden well they become bin forgotten if you know what I mean


you know they are limits to freedom specially if somebody wants to enforce their beliefs onto others. you know I have no problem with people being Muslim as long as they keep it to themselves. unfortunately this is not something we have seen from Muslim leaders throughout history. They only way the spread their religion was by brutal use of force.

that is what I am against. I am against people being murdered because they had sex or lashed because they got drunk!

Back up all these claims, please.

Your links do not work, aswell.

Deep

www.sumka.org...

Seeings this Iranian party is against Islamic extremists, i dont think Islam and Muslims should be "taken down"....do you?

Zero, you have read these same things many times, there have been numerous examples of people being killed in Islamic states for violations of religious laws, and there have been many cases of people being executed for converting from Islam to Christianity, and watching their family members be executed before their own execution.

Indigo, I have never read your distaste for documented Islamic atrocities against the Christian in "Islamic States" or compared their actions to Hitlerism.

Originally posted by zurvan

I am not even comparing christianity to this. What has christianity got to do wiht my point? even if christianity was bad as you seem to be implying it doesn't make what Islam does right!

You are questioning one religion why not question them all.
It doesnt make it right but islam didnt do it , the people who kill in its name did. Remember back years ago people would kill each other because they didnt believe in the same beliefs. Welcome to the modern day version.

stating something that needs to be said is not a crime.

I never said it was wrong, if you thought i was then i am sorry, i am trying to point out that islam is not the worst and by far is a gentle version.

I am not against christianity or any religion, as billy connolly put it: "if you believe in god then he exists , its not up for question". If you believe that your firdge is god then go ahead its not a problem. What i am saying is that the religion isnt necessarilly the problem but the people who try to interprit it are.

you know they are limits to freedom specially if somebody wants to enforce their beliefs onto others. you know I have no problem with people being Muslim as long as they keep it to themselves.

I am sure some where out there there is an Islamic extrimist somewhere out there saying: "I have no prolblem with people who dont like me practicing Islam or teaching Islam, as long as they keep it to themselves".

You see there is no diffrence between a person who is trying to force other groups like Muslims, to accept their values and Muslims who try to force others accept their values.





[edit on 24-12-2004 by Sep]

I dont see anything racist about conversation about that how religions effect on different countries, long as people show real facts and dont go to fanatic frenzy. I have to agree as some state females have always been 2nd class citizens, but i can personally say things have gone far from where they been in Europe for example, thats also due fact of wealth. It has great effect for everything, but still doesnt remove that someone wouldnt left as 2nd class citizen, now imigrants get the dirty job. Theres many laws formed to protect woman cause of weaker sex, to find total balance shouldnt even be considered, as theres so many inviduals.

Some of the islamic countries problem is that those laws that discriminate females are on goverment level, part of culture, thats something that shouldnt be on today modern world. Still shouldnt forgot that not all Islam using countries that has its laws on goverment level use same primitive laws. Europe forces Turkey political to change it laws to meet it own requiments, so isnt that example how things should go instead waging war and make things worse?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

taking down a religion still can't be racist. even if your deduction was right and I had meant to take down Muslims, it won't make it a racist comments as Muslim come from lots of different races!
But hell I have no idea how to do it, I just know it needs to be done. Plus majority of Muslims I am sure are just plain followers. They are Muslim because their parents were and they don't really exercise it!

When a muslim is deprived of the right to be muslim, you are depriving them of the right to believe in what they want and their race? That is more than racism, that's Nazism.

What happens when a Muslim refuses? What do you advocate we do then?

[edit on 23-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Dude, there are white, black, arab, indian, Russian, and Indonesian arab.

It's not being racist.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

of course Muslims heck anybody is entitled to freedom of speech and religion, however, this freedom is curbed. You can not go out there a kill/ rob other people just because you want to! and claim that is your choice.

Muslims look at west as infidels. They doctrine is to convert everybody by force and these are the subjects that need to be changed. They can not go out there and kill people just because somebody didn't agree with their religion or decided to criticise them.

what happens when a Muslim refuses? well you have to define what kind of Muslim if they are a passive one that is not out there to kill all the infidels and convert everyone to Islam or in short they are happy to keep their religion personal then nothing. If they are like Bin Laden well they become bin forgotten if you know what I mean


you know they are limits to freedom specially if somebody wants to enforce their beliefs onto others. you know I have no problem with people being Muslim as long as they keep it to themselves. unfortunately this is not something we have seen from Muslim leaders throughout history. They only way the spread their religion was by brutal use of force.

that is what I am against. I am against people being murdered because they had sex or lashed because they got drunk!

Back up all these claims, please.

Your links do not work, aswell.

Deep

Deep I am not sure but are you American? Do you remember 9/11? Bin Laden?

Do some searches on Islams expansion and you'd see how they spread that religion.

still you haven't exactely asked me what to clarify so I have to guess!

here are some links for you.

Exposing the myth that Islam is a peacfull religion


What is the Quran?

It appears in these contemporary times everything needs to be defined for it to be recognized. Common sense takes a back seat

Race: A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
A genealogical line; a lineage.
Humans considered as a group.

Racism: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

So by definition this thread is racist(duh), but as the moderators are setting such a good example by allowing and even supporting racism, I guess it does not even matter.

[edit on 25-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

of course Muslims heck anybody is entitled to freedom of speech and religion, however, this freedom is curbed. You can not go out there a kill/ rob other people just because you want to! and claim that is your choice.

Did I say you can?

Muslims look at west as infidels. They doctrine is to convert everybody by force and these are the subjects that need to be changed. They can not go out there and kill people just because somebody didn't agree with their religion or decided to criticise them.

Do they? I know some Muslims who are supporting the war on Iraq. Oh, and nor do they convert anybody. What are they?

Actually, the president of India is a muslim. I don't see him doing anything wrong to the west?

Which must mean you are either lying or spouting rubbish.

what happens when a Muslim refuses? well you have to define what kind of Muslim if they are a passive one that is not out there to kill all the infidels and convert everyone to Islam or in short they are happy to keep their religion personal then nothing. If they are like Bin Laden well they become bin forgotten if you know what I mean

How do you propose we do that? Gather all the Muslims and then profile them? I suppose we could tag them with "active muslim" and "passive muslim" like animals. Is that the freedom you speak of?

you know they are limits to freedom specially if somebody wants to enforce their beliefs onto others. you know I have no problem with people being Muslim as long as they keep it to themselves. unfortunately this is not something we have seen from Muslim leaders throughout history. They only way the spread their religion was by brutal use of force.

How do you suppose a Muslim keeps their religion to themselves?

are you implying that we have a "Moslem" race now?

Say an American Moslem(converted one ofcourse), a Saudi Moslme and an Indonesian Moslem are all the same kind of race right?

Aren't people still allowed racist views? Isn't that one of the fundamental freedoms we cherish on the internet? No, wait..It was one of the fundamental freedoms we used to enjoy, that is now being eroded. I think, and I'm probably alone on this but what the heck, here goes.

People should be able, encouraged even, to say whatever it is they want to say. Speech, communication, discourse, the exchange of ideas, these are invaluable to our evolution as a species.

Racists are by evolutionary standards, inferior. They have willingly denied themselves access to a large breeding population, while at the same time increased beligerence towards many other city, country, nation dwellers who otherwise would have no cause to do them harm. These people will die off, eventually, if ignored.

Some racists are violent, but most just shoot their mouths off. They should be ignored. Violent racists who do harm to other men should be dealt with appropriately. I also decry the hate crime laws that only serve to further separate us. A man is a man, a crime is a crime, a crime against one man is a crime against all men.

I don't like racists. They anger me, but I've learned to control my anger and measure my responses to their ignorance. I will do my best to inform, but I do not waste too much time with them, because it's obvious to me that they have a serious mental deficiency.

Picking apart a religion is not racist, but it is unnecessary. Religions come and go, and none are more dangerous than the others. They all promise something intangible for a very real sacrifice. Religion is funny, really, I mean I've always believed in God, but I've never felt the need to worship. That's my choice, isn't it? Right, just so we've got that clear, if it's my choice then it's a matter of choice for anyone who wants to practice Islam.

Islam has peaceful splinter groups, violent splinter groups, many differrent groups of either the former or later category make up "Islam." Christianity is exactly the same way. So is Hinduism. The dangerous element in any religion is the biased mouthpiece, the mullah, priest, yogi, whatever. If they're unhinged, then they're going to project a skewed impression, many people may harbor prejudice as a result. If you educate more people worldwide, to seek objectivity in all things and to approach with a rational mind the claims of religion, this sort of influence would lose its sting.

If you want to destroy Islam, grab a gun, go shoot you some ay-rabs. Don't be surprised if none of us help. Don't be surprised if you get killed while playing Rambo. Don't be at all surprised when your genetics don't join the wonderous future of the human race. Oh, and have fun, whatever you choose to do.

Originally posted by zurvan
are you implying that we have a "Moslem" race now?

Say an American Moslem(converted one ofcourse), a Saudi Moslme and an Indonesian Moslem are all the same kind of race right?

If you went out and insulted a Muslim for practicing his faith you would be indited for Racism. Just recently my friend was indited for racism against one of her neighbors. All she did was call him a "terrorist" he reported her to the police and she was immediately arrested and is now facing court charges.

I cannot guarantee if your fate will be as leniant as hers. If you go outside(please go into a mosque) and express the same thoughts you have done here, may their god help you.

[edit on 25-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Muslims look at west as infidels.

Provide me with a link in Quran where it says the Westerners are infidles. I can provide you with quite a few where it talks about repecting Christianity and Jews but that will not fit the agenda of people like you will it?

They doctrine is to convert everybody by force and these are the subjects that need to be changed. They can not go out there and kill people just because somebody didn't agree with their religion or decided to criticise them.

Again, quote a part of Quran that says this. You are insulting 90% of the people of my country and demand that you tell me which parts of Quran this comes from otherwise accept that you are totally and completly wrong and you dont have a clue what you are talking about.

what happens when a Muslim refuses? well you have to define what kind of Muslim if they are a passive one that is not out there to kill all the infidels and convert everyone to Islam or in short they are happy to keep their religion personal then nothing. If they are like Bin Laden well they become bin forgotten if you know what I mean

A muslim that wants to teach his religion is fine in my opinion. He has the right to go out and tell every one about his religion and if their religion is wrong then there is nothing to worry about because no one will join them. This being said, no-one has any right to stop them from teaching, and if you want to kill them because they teach, then some one should kill you.

you know they are limits to freedom specially if somebody wants to enforce their beliefs onto others.

Like you forcing muslims to change their religion so it suit you best?

you know I have no problem with people being Muslim as long as they keep it to themselves.

And I have no problem with you being a Muslim hater, as long as you keep it to your self

Prophet Mohammad has reserved special position for certain sects of Unbelievers in his so called "Holy Book" Koran. Those unbelievers are none other than followers of Christianity and Judaism. A few verses have veen selected from Koran to display what Muslims are taught and instructed as far as treating Christians and Jews is concerned.

[al-Ma'idah 5:51]
Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends.
They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their
friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not
guide the wrong-doers.

In this verse Prophet Mohammad is clearly instructing his followers never to befriend a Christian or a Jew. Because if they take a Christian or a Jew as a friend, they will commit a wrong deed and Allah's wrath will be on them.

[al-Ma'idah 5:57]
Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and
those who were given the Book before you, who have made
your religion a jest and a pasttime...

Here "those who were given the Book before you" refers to Christians and Jews. Once again Mohammad is warning Muslims of all time never to befriend a Christian or a Jew.

[al-Ma'idah 5:64]
The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands
be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!...

In the above verse Prophet Mohammad is showing his deep respect for the Jews.

[at-Taubah 9:29]
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor
hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and
his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from
among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah
with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.

Here 'People of the Book' refers to Christians and Jews. The 'Religion Of Truth' refers to Islam. So in the above verse Prophet Mohammad is instructing Muslims to fight and torture Christians and Jews (who do not believe in Islamic version of God) until they pay tax to Muslims for their existence. Muslims are also strictly instructed to make the Christians and Jews feel 'subdued'. Allah is truly benign !!!

[at-Taubah 9:30]
The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christinas call
'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth;
(In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used
to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are decluded away
from the Truth.

Here Prophet Mohammad is wishing that Allah's curse be on Jews and Christians. And what did the Christians and Jews do for such special favour from Allah ? All they did is that out of respect and love, they called their Prophets 'son of God'.

@zurvan

First, it is always nice to give a source about where you get your information from

www.derafsh-kaviyani.com...

This is a Zoorasterian site. If I personally wanted to learn more about Islam I would try reading their books instead of copy-pasting something from an anti-Islam site (just a hint)

Second: If Muslims are so hateful of Christians, why would they devote a huge part of their book praising Mary? Why would they name a part of their book after her? Why would they call the Christians and Jews the people of the book? Why would he tell them to deal "kindly and justly with anyone (even "infidles") who (has) not expelled you from your homes"?

Third: The articles that you have mentioned probebly refer to the history of the time and if you acctually study the history of Jews and Muslims if will make sense for 1300 years ago, when the Jews called themselves allies to Muslims and half way through their most important battle the changed sides and attacked the Muslims. This might have created some dislike for the Jews among Muslims and has been refered to in the Quran. There is examples of this in other religions. For example in the old testiment in the book of Deutronomy part 7 verse 1-2 it gives the order to all the Jews to kill all the hittites, Girga#es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites without any mercy. To a person who reads it now it might not make any sense but if you study the history better it might just make some sense.

[edit on 25-12-2004 by Sep]

Zuvan, by your logic every religion is evil.

Stop being a dick.

id have to agree this thread isnt any more diffrent from christain bashing

but in my eyes its a case of tit for tat

and muslims are just as much nazi's as christains seeing as how a whole battilion of german SS troops where muslim and they hate jews more than any 1 else right now

its rather sad that on ATS ppl would rather bash a religon and find its faults rather than find the beuty and share all the gd in them all

thats ignorance in itself and shows a complete bias and 1 sided opinion towards religon