Biblical Plunder

a reply to: pthena

Thank you - this is a new idea for me. I will use the Deuteronomy Quote myself in the future.

Your scripture passages do read like a license to war, rape and pillage at will, as long as you pay your 'diety' it's due.

I've got to ponder this one. And check out similar passages from other religions. This appears to be the fondation of dehumanizing those that don't believe in your 'diety(ies)'.

Again Thank You

a reply to: pthena

But that isn't what John Chapter 5 is about. It's about his work, including healing on the Sabbath as testifying of the god who sent him. And that he, Jesus gives life to those who hear him.

is it not though?

Wouldn't healing people be treating people how they would like to be treated? IF one comes across a wounded man, and has the ability to heal him, or at the very least, help him... Is that now how anyone would like to be treated?

Was not the Sabbath made for man?

Of course there are chapters in all the gospels which are just him dealing with people that didn't get him, but it was about his work... which was the Fathers work, not his own

The God they did not know...

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

IF one believes in Him, they will do as he asked... and HE asked for mercy, forgiveness, kindness... Do good even on the Sabbath etc etc...

His entire message was about how we treat others

a reply to: FyreByrd

Thank you - this is a new idea for me.

You're welcome.

I try to look at things from angles other than the ones that other people have used over and over again.

The concept actually came up in my mind while arguing politics. Suddenly a not flattering picture of Bible politics popped into my mind.

a reply to: Akragon

His entire message was about how we treat others

I don't know why we are arguing. It's not like I'm telling people to ignore what he said. Or did I? I don't think so.

So ethics then. Should be a part of everything we do, including arts, sciences, technology, tradecraft, and whatever else we do. Full time obsession over ethics doesn't seem healthy to me.

a reply to: pthena

I prefer to think of it as a rational discussion about what God is, and what he is not...

There is no "biblical plundering" in the NT... no conquering, waging wars against men and other civilizations...

The war flipped from the physical to the spiritual. No more sacrifice (until Paul made Jesus "the sacrifice")

No more spilling the blood of innocent animals, HE asked for the sacrifice to come from within...

essentially Yes... It came down to ethics...

not something to be obsessed over, but practiced... and perfected

a reply to: windword

Just wanted to post a quote from the article you linked.

It is tempting to view the problems of the past as ancient history-long resolved and no longer relevant to our lives. The effects of manifest destiny, however, continue today. American Indian Nations are still in court over land disputes, and countless native people suffer from extreme poverty and other social problems as a result of past policies. September 11th and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have ignited age-old debates about U.S. objectives. Though the public discourse no longer includes terms such as "expansion," "discovery," and "destiny," discussions about globalization, preemptive war, and the responsibilities of the world's only "superpower" echo familiar themes. It is perhaps fitting that this dialogue ensues as the country commemorates the bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark expedition, or Corps of Discovery, which paved the way for U.S. expansion.
archive.adl.org...

That was 2005.

a reply to: Akragon

I prefer to think of it as a rational discussion about what God is, and what he is not...

There is no "biblical plundering" in the NT... no conquering, waging wars against men and other civilizations...

The war flipped from the physical to the spiritual. No more sacrifice (until Paul made Jesus "the sacrifice")

So the "spiritual war" is a war of ideas, against what exactly? Against Philosophy? Against secular mindedness? Against materialism?

But let's do this then. Tell me about your God. Specifically, what is his relationship to the Shema?

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
—Mark 12:28-31

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
—Deuteronomy 6:4-5

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

—Leviticus 19:18

That Shema is in the very same chapter of Deuteronomy as is the Opening Post verse. And "all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Seems like a rather all consuming activity right there. Not much energy left for anything else.

Important question: What exactly does your God want or expect from me, a Gentile?

These are just questions. Take your time because they are important questions.

a reply to: pthena

So the "spiritual war" is a war of ideas, against what exactly?

Not so much...

I would say more like a war for the mind and the heart... the mind of the selfish vs the selfless, which is not just black and white

But let's do this then. Tell me about your God. Specifically, what is his relationship to the Shema?

Admittedly, there are hints of the true God in the OT... Not much mind you

More or less the idea that one day HE will be revealed

The Shema is the first commandment, which ties in with the second... which is why Jesus said "and the second is like onto the first"

That Shema is in the very same chapter of Deuteronomy as is the Opening Post verse. And "all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Seems like a rather all consuming activity right there. Not much energy left for anything else.

Yet even that is missing an element... The passage in Leviticus singles out "thy people" as being your neighbour. Almost as if only they can understand the concept of mercy. There wasn't a bias with Jesus... Matthew has a touch of it when speaking about the gentiles, but its likely the bias of the Author rather then Him

The idea being... We are a part of the Father, Thus we love our neighbour as we love ourselves, which is also loving a part of God as well

Important question: What exactly does your God want or expect from me, a Gentile?

its funny how people say "your God"... I do it too when I speak to Christians about the OT god...

I feel the entity portrayed within those texts is not God, but man speaking for him... OR the idea of the demiurge...

Im undecided on which but its likely man... We love to screw stuff up... LOL

What does HE want of from you?

Love your neighbour as you love yourself... On these two rules all the law and the prophets hang...

Well, what if one does not love himself... that's for another thread I suppose

a reply to: Akragon

its funny how people say "your God"... I do it too when I speak to Christians about the OT god...

I have a whole thread that deals with my experience with monotheists. It isn't really funny. So your personal monotheistic god is the OT fellow brushed off and correctly revealed by Jesus.

John 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me. If someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe, if you accept praise from one another and don’t seek the praise that comes from the only God?

It's rather obvious that the Jesus of the gospels is a monotheist.

What does HE want of from you?

Love your neighbour as you love yourself... On these two rules all the law and the prophets hang...

The Law and the Prophets can go hang for all the good I see in them.

Seriously, what was the attitude of gospel Jesus about Gentiles and Heathens?

And Jesus taught his disciples saying:

"When you do this, do it like this, not like the Gentiles.

and when you do that, do it like that, not like the heathen do it."

So the World without Jesus is a dark ignorant World with no concept of love. Wow! And we needed Jesus to bring us dark blighted souls into fellowship with the real one and only god that the Old Testament hinted about. Double Wow!

Whatever gospel Jesus thinks about me, a heathen Gentile, right back at him!

Now that I'm down to his level, I feel like crap.

There's something wonderful to get, don't miss out!

There's a story in the Synoptic Gospels, all three, doesn't really matter which one you read it in(see also Matthew 19:16-30; Mark 10:17-31). It's called The Rich Young Ruler

Luke 18 WEB(World English Bible)

18A certain ruler asked him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one—God. 20You know the commandments: 'Don't commit adultery,' 'Don't murder,' 'Don't steal,' 'Don't give false testimony,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'" 21He said, "I have observed all these things from my youth up." 22When Jesus heard these things, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have, and distribute it to the poor. You will have treasure in heaven. Come, follow me." 23But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was very rich. 24Jesus, seeing that he became very sad, said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter into the Kingdom of God! 25For it is easier for a camel to enter in through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God." 26Those who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" 27But he said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

28Peter said, "Look, we have left everything, and followed you." 29He said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, there is no one who has left house, or wife, or brothers, or parents, or children, for the Kingdom of God's sake, 30who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the world to come, eternal life."

This story contains many related concepts: Eternal Life, Treasure in Heaven, Kingdom of God, being Saved, Present Day Rewards, World to Come.

All that you have to do is give up all your current social and economic connections to life and all these can be yours. Of course they're all either invisible, somewhere else, or off in some future. Not only that, they are not defined. Unless you live in some culture in which these concepts have a definition, you've got no idea what these things are.

So here's a little personal anecdote involving my last foray into Christian realms of "reality".

My son was 24 at the time, working in an institutional kitchen. Two of his co-workers were Christians and would chat about things. So my son said to me, "Hey Dad, I'd like to learn all about Christianity. Two of my co-workers go to a Bible study once a week at a non-denominational minister's house. You want to come along?"

So being a watchful dad, I went to the Bible studies with him. The curriculum was going to be from Genesis thru Revelation.

After a few weeks, still in Genesis, my son started asking me about the pre-Tribulation Rapture. So I whipped out my Giant Print Bible that my son had bought for me and proceeded to show him all the mis-interpreted verses that supported such a notion.

So at work the following day he was sharing with one of his co-workers how pre-trib was nonsense, only to be overheard by the other co-worker.

While we were on the way to the next Bible study, my son said, "Hey Dad, there may be some trouble tonight. I was talking to one guy about the rapture and one of the girls in the class overheard and ran straight for the telephone. So don't be surprised if we get jumped on."

I have to explain a few things here. This Bible study was supposed to be intro material, no pre-requisite knowledge required. There was no sign at the door saying "pre-trib rapture believers only". Just so that is understood.

Soon as everyone was seated, the minister says, "Raise your hands all you who believe in the rapture." The five or six students other than my son and I raised their hands.

The minister than proceeded to yell out verses. "...It says right here! Now what do you think?"

So I said, "Let's take a look at that verse, and read it in context, ... It says right here ..."

Then came the killer argument, again yelled out, "If you don't believe in the rapture then you won't be in the rapture!"

Now this is the point of the whole story. For an instant, I felt dread, "Oh no, there's something I could have, but I'll miss out if I don't believe." No sooner did I actually think the words to myself, the dread was gone, and I started laughing out loud.

After informing us about what vile people we were for having accepted entry into his home under false pretences he asked us to leave, never come back, and even forget where he lived.

The moral of the story is: Just because someone says there's some great something that you can have doesn't make it so.

a reply to: pthena

I have a whole thread that deals with my experience with monotheists. It isn't really funny. So your personal monotheistic god is the OT fellow brushed off and correctly revealed by Jesus.

Basically...

Seriously, what was the attitude of gospel Jesus about Gentiles and Heathens?

And Jesus taught his disciples saying:

"When you do this, do it like this, not like the Gentiles.

and when you do that, do it like that, not like the heathen do it."

What he says about them isn't all that serious... Vain repetitions, which he explains is pointless...

Can't seem to remember anything really bad he said about the gentiles or heathens for that matter... Perhaps you'd like to remind me?

So the World without Jesus is a dark ignorant World with no concept of love. Wow! And we needed Jesus to bring us dark blighted souls into fellowship with the real one and only god that the Old Testament hinted about. Double Wow!

Well... Even after Jesus things were screwed up... He just showed the correct path... which is narrow and few actually find it... Look at the world today! Still a horrible place... always has been, always will be

Whatever gospel Jesus thinks about me, a heathen Gentile, right back at him!

Now that I'm down to his level, I feel like crap.

LOL why?

What Jesus taught is already within everyone... We are born with the ability to love...

Interesting story by the way... I have a similar one, which I don't really want to rehatch right now...

Basically I tried to return to Christianity, and got everything that drove me away in the first place thrown right back in my face... my experience reinforced the fact that Christianity's god is not the one I recognize

Christian hypocrisy is astounding... and it permeates their ranks

a reply to: pthena

......Eternal Life, Treasure in Heaven, Kingdom of God, being Saved, Present Day Rewards, World to Come.

All that you have to do is give up all your current social and economic connections to life and all these can be yours.

And if you don't.........DEATH!

Acts 5
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

a reply to: windword

The chapter before, lays the background. It looks like an experiment to put into practice the idea of "receive many times more in this time"

Acts 4:32The multitude of those who believed were of one heart and soul. Not one of them claimed that anything of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33With great power, the apostles gave their testimony of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Great grace was on them all. 34For neither was there among them any who lacked, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35and laid them at the apostles' feet, and distribution was made to each, according as anyone had need.

The death at the hands of Peter story, (What? The hands of Peter? Sure, see 5:12 "By the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people" ) was after the "resurrection" and after "outpouring of Holy Spirit" and illustrates one of the high points of Early Church days of power.

Basically, those two died because Peter thought they deserved to die, and oh won't that just boost the popularity of the Church because obviously they held the great power of life and death.

The very idea of this community is rather appalling, just like recent tragic ends of personality cults. They sold their farms and lands, thus removing themselves from "worldly production", to what? Sit around waiting for the day to come so they could enter their eternal reward?

a reply to: Akragon

Vain repetitions, which he explains is pointless...

Religion Etymology
One possibility is an interpretation traced to Cicero, connecting lego "read", i.e. re (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully".

It's pointless to read things over and over to gain understanding? It's pointless to think about personal experiences over and over to gain some understanding or carefully consider things?
That is my religion. That is my mode of thought. And gospel Jesus calls it vain repetition. That sure seems to be a direct personal insult to me.

Christian hypocrisy is astounding... and it permeates their ranks

But you have managed to avoid it. Astounding!

Why do you have the same worldview? That Roman civilization, arts, sciences, technology, economy, love, marriage, family, buildings, farms, were all just vanity and nothing without a new cult figure?

Christianity did not build Rome. But Christianity moved in and took Rome as plunder, just like Deuteronomy 6 said. Then Christianity put all aspects of life and learning under Church authority. Worldly education and knowledge died as a result. Then Christian Rome expanded it's reach to subdue all culture and knowledge destroying traditional values in the process.

a reply to: pthena

It's pointless to read things over and over to gain understanding? It's pointless to think about personal experiences over and over to gain some understanding or carefully consider things?

not at all...

its pointless to repeat prayer as if the more you do it the more God will hear you...

The "hail mary" for example

a reply to: pthena

With great power, the apostles gave their testimony of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Great grace was on them all. 34For neither was there among them any who lacked, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35and laid them at the apostles' feet, and distribution was made to each, according as anyone had need.

That sounds like it was lifted, er borrowed, from Josephus' account of the Essene!

[According to Josephus] Essenes loved each other more than others, renounced riches (they were the Poor) and kept no servants, ministering to one another, eating only the simplest food and wearing their clothes and shoes to shreds. They held their goods in common yielding their possessions to the order when they joined and contributing all their earnings. Failure to do this was a grave dishonesty and was severely punished.

These men are despisers of riches, and so very communicative as raises our admiration. Nor is there any one to be found among them who hath more than another; for it is a law among them, that those who come to them must let what they have be common to the whole order, — insomuch that among them all there is no appearance of poverty, or excess of riches, but every one's possessions are intermingled with every other's possessions, and so there is, as it were, one patrimony among all the brethren.

----------------------

And whereas everything spoken by them is more forceful than an oath, swearing itself they avoid, considering it worse than the false oath; for they declare to be already degraded one who is unworthy of belief without God.

Josephus The Jewish Wars Book II Chapter 8

SOURCE

a reply to: Akragon

its pointless to repeat prayer as if the more you do it the more God will hear you...

The "hail mary" for example

That's a trick question

According to St. Gertrude (1256–1301), the Blessed Virgin Mary promised the following: "To any soul who faithfully prays the Three Hail Marys I will appear at the hour of death in a splendor of beauty so extraordinary that it will fill the soul with Heavenly consolation."
Three Hail Marys#Revelations_from_the_Blessed_Virgin_Mary

I'm not about to start arguing against St Gertrude.

I know it's rather popular to criticize the Church of Rome for inroads of "Pagan" influence. But why exactly would I want to think of "Pagan" influence as a bad thing?

Besides that, the Holy Mother never did me any harm.

a reply to: windword

Thank you.

I think I like Philo's description of Essenes. I think maybe Essenes and Ebionites (the poor) may be the same group.

He agrees with Josephus that the Essenes lived all over Judaea but maintains that they preferred to live in villages not towns. They avoided towns because of the contagion of evils rife within them. The sick and elderly were cared for—the scrolls tell us that the infirm and the sick were already spiritually saved under the guardianship of the angels of holiness.

Very unlikely that Essenes would hang out in Jerusalem. Book of Acts is considered by scholars to be historical fiction as opposed to history.

a reply to: pthena

nah, I got no beef with any of the saints either, except maybe St.Christopher...

He was made up...

I was just pointing out what he said...

a reply to: pthena

the scrolls tell us that the infirm and the sick were already spiritually saved under the guardianship of the angels of holiness.

Interesting! I did not know that. That accounts for "Blessed are meek and the poor in spirit".