Man Threatens Suicide, Police Kill Him

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: sparky31

Cops are human and make mistakes.

One way to help them not make mistakes is to call them on it when they do and have repercussions.

Another way is to call them on it when they do and have better training and SOP implemented so they don't rush in to a situation and escalate it.

We really don't know what happened and for all I know the police followed procedure to perfection and the guy did in fact lunge at them with a knife.

Now if that's what happened can we perhaps agree that 2 armed men storming a room with a suicidal man is not the only option, and probably one of the worst?

yeah i agree but were you there?do you know excatly what happened?we hear one side,you do not know how violent it got and if it was their only option at the time,put yourself in their position if it was you.

First off, it occurs to me that if the guy's middle na me was something like Daniel or Douglas, his name would have been Justin D. Way.

Sorry, I coldn't help it.

That's pretty damned stupid, though.

a reply to: sparky31

Sparky,

If this were an isolated incident then I would agree with you. However this is becoming all too common place. While not every cop will escalate to deadly force, there are enough that will that makes calling for help a game of 'Russian Roulette'. Even you must see that there is a rise of excessive force being used by some LEO's. Then again...

Look, how many more need to die at the hands of an over zealot few before something is done? I know, I know, you and I do not need to worry about being harmed or killed by police officers... or do we? Can you tell me for certain that your next encounter will not go wrong? What about for one of your friends? Family? If you say that will never happen to you or someone you know, then keep living the illusion, because it happened to this family and many more before them.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: sparky31
so you think the police that go out there now don,t have proper training?

No, they clearly don't. If they think the correct response to a suicidal man with a knife is to approach him armed with assault rifles, it is clear they have not had the required training for dealing with people with mental health issues.

originally posted by: sparky31
why don,t we just teach the criminal that the gun aint the answer and have compassion and empathy for your fellow man?

What has that got to do with the price of fish in Grimsby on a Wednesday?

well we,r not exactly talking about grimsby are we?pretty sure not many people carry guns in grimsby and before you say he had a knife remember cops in america are not just thinking knife,everyones armed so i think that has to be taken into account.

originally posted by: sparky31
well we,r not exactly talking about grimsby are we?pretty sure not many people carry guns in grimsby and before you say he had a knife remember cops in america are not just thinking knife,everyones armed so i think that has to be taken into account.

Clearly not familiar with the saying - It has nothing to do with Grimsby, it is a saying to ask why your bringing up an irrelevant point:

"What's that got to do with the -- ?" is an expression denoting an irrelevance or non sequitur in the current discussion.

A common form "what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?", is a retort to an irrelevant suggestion.[1] This facetious usage implies that the topic under discussion might as well be the price of tea in China for all the relevance the speaker's suggestion bears on it. It has been said[by whom?] that this expression has stemmed from economists, who describe everything economic as affecting everything else, trying to find an expression which denotes the farthest logical connection from their current economic focus, in a sort of butterfly effect.[2] In this way, the price of tea in China was used to denote the farthest possibility. It can also be used to denote an irrelevant topic.

Link

As for your second point, they knew exactly what they were walking into. They had the chaps own Girlfriend telling them he was threatening to self-harm, had mental issues and had a knife, so their first response is to enter the house with bloody big guns and shoot him.

I'm not arguing cops should be unarmed, I am arguing they should use their brains a bit more and certainly need better training than "shoot it!" Making them accountable for every shot fired and to give a reason for it woul;d help, you wouldn't get people being shot 10-15 times by Police then.

Once more, here in the UK, even if a man is armed, they are only likely to be shot once or twice - the officer must justify each bullet fired. It would kill the trigger happy culture overnight if they had to explain why Mr Bloggs is sitting in a morgue with 15 holes in him. Even in the most controversial shooting in the UK of recent years, Marc Duggan (who was armed) was only shot twice by Police and an series of investigations and inquiries were held where the Officer had to explain their actions and defend their judgement several times over.

originally posted by: sparky31

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: sparky31

Oh, give over. Yes, Police put themselves in harms way, but how is a suicidal man any risk to them?

UK Police would have spoke with the guy from a safe distance and tried to talk him down - if all else fails, they'd use a tazer to subdue him, then section under the Mental health Act. At no point would they send in any ARV guys with their MP5's to "neutralise" him.

not even going to argue with anyone on this post,lets just have a police free world and deal out our own justice,that should be fun.

I agree, we should all be responsible for ourselves.

It is illegal for law enforcement to prevent crime anyway, they can only investigate crimes that have been committed and arrest suspects, services that can be supplied by private institutions that can be held to account for their actions.

originally posted by: ObservingTheWorld
a reply to: sparky31

Sparky,

If this were an isolated incident then I would agree with you. However this is becoming all too common place. While not every cop will escalate to deadly force, there are enough that will that makes calling for help a game of 'Russian Roulette'. Even you must see that there is a rise of excessive force being used by some LEO's. Then again...

Look, how many more need to die at the hands of an over zealot few before something is done? I know, I know, you and I do not need to worry about being harmed or killed by police officers... or do we? Can you tell me for certain that your next encounter will not go wrong? What about for one of your friends? Family? If you say that will never happen to you or someone you know, then keep living the illusion, because it happened to this family and many more before them.

no its common place cause of certain shootings,how many police are shot a year you never hear about just cause they were doing their job?i,m guessing quite alot

a reply to: Domo1

Didn't know it was illegal to have knives in your own home. Who woulda' thought it would get you killed?

Why is when i read these kind of stories i get the impression there are an element of American police out there that are just itching to shoot someone down...do they get extra points for a kill in a day?...are they fantasizing being in some kind of fps game ?.....

I am so glad i do not live in the U.S i am not sure how i would cope if this happened in my backyard.....

a reply to: Domo1

Remember when the police would get celebrities like Ali to talk suicidal people down?

I can just imagine somebody about to jump and one of these guys just show up to push him.

originally posted by: Greathouse
She should have called his sponsor first!


Do not call the police unless absolutely necessary they are not on your side.

sadly, we will see that you are right.

originally posted by: sparky31

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: sparky31

Who's saying we should have a "Police Free world". You seem to live in a world of extremes, either we have Police who are prepared to shoot anyone for anything, or none at all!

How about giving them some proper training, teach them the gun isn't the answer and learn some bloody compassion and empathy for your fellow man... It ain't hard.

so you think the police that go out there now don,t have proper training?why don,t we just teach the criminal that the gun aint the answer and have compassion and empathy for your fellow man?

At least in your world, we don't have to pay for prisons or court systems.

Seriously, don't you think police should be held to a higher standard than psychotic violent criminals?

a reply to: stumason

this alone may make your isles a superior country.

a reply to: sparky31

we didn't have cops until 1800s...... we are still here.

a reply to: Domo1

Well...cops actually saved him from eternal damnation. Suicide is a big no no

originally posted by: wasaka
Cops have killed well over 5,000 Americans since 9/11.

I have had issues with people where I wanted to call the police and haven't because I didn't want a murder on my conscience. It's pretty bad when issues with the neighbors fighting, or prowlers going through my trash in the middle of the night results in me not wanting to call the police because I'm scared a body will be coming away from the scene rather than any actual resolution.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: sparky31
well we,r not exactly talking about grimsby are we?pretty sure not many people carry guns in grimsby and before you say he had a knife remember cops in america are not just thinking knife,everyones armed so i think that has to be taken into account.

Clearly not familiar with the saying - It has nothing to do with Grimsby, it is a saying to ask why your bringing up an irrelevant point:

"What's that got to do with the -- ?" is an expression denoting an irrelevance or non sequitur in the current discussion.

A common form "what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?", is a retort to an irrelevant suggestion.[1] This facetious usage implies that the topic under discussion might as well be the price of tea in China for all the relevance the speaker's suggestion bears on it. It has been said[by whom?] that this expression has stemmed from economists, who describe everything economic as affecting everything else, trying to find an expression which denotes the farthest logical connection from their current economic focus, in a sort of butterfly effect.[2] In this way, the price of tea in China was used to denote the farthest possibility. It can also be used to denote an irrelevant topic.

Link

As for your second point, they knew exactly what they were walking into. They had the chaps own Girlfriend telling them he was threatening to self-harm, had mental issues and had a knife, so their first response is to enter the house with bloody big guns and shoot him.

I'm not arguing cops should be unarmed, I am arguing they should use their brains a bit more and certainly need better training than "shoot it!" Making them accountable for every shot fired and to give a reason for it woul;d help, you wouldn't get people being shot 10-15 times by Police then.

Once more, here in the UK, even if a man is armed, they are only likely to be shot once or twice - the officer must justify each bullet fired. It would kill the trigger happy culture overnight if they had to explain why Mr Bloggs is sitting in a morgue with 15 holes in him. Even in the most controversial shooting in the UK of recent years, Marc Duggan (who was armed) was only shot twice by Police and an series of investigations and inquiries were held where the Officer had to explain their actions and defend their judgement several times over.

you are on a roll. that is in stark contrast to our most "restrained" leo encounters.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

from misguided firsthand experience....... they are picturing themselves in COD. at least until sh*t gets real.

originally posted by: sparky31
no its common place cause of certain shootings,how many police are shot a year you never hear about just cause they were doing their job?i,m guessing quite alot

It's actually quite few. The numbers have been declining for 30 years and are at record lows, despite the fact that the number of police are at record highs. They're going down massively per capita. In fact for a so called dangerous job, the fatality rate for police officers is among the lowest in the country. By death statistics it is quite literally one of the safest professions out there. You are more likely to die on the job as an office secretary than a police officer. Here's an article on it.
www.washingtonpost.com...

Never in the history of the country has it been safer to be a police officer than right now. They aren't putting their lives on the line, they're putting your life on the line. In fact, being shot or stabbed don't even make the top 3 ways police officers die on the job. The first is being hit by a car during a traffic stop. The second is getting in a traffic accident while driving, the third is having a medical emergency. By the numbers as a delivery driver you are more than 20x as likely to be violently attacked on the job than a police officer is.

The rules of engagement for a police officer are significantly less restrictive than for our soldiers in the middle of active front line war zones. A soldier in Iraq was told they had to visibly see a weapon and must be shot at first. A cop is allowed to kill you based on an unconfirmed suspicious that you have a weapon, and they are allowed to escalate to lethal force before you. In fact their very training says as much. If you take a hostile tone they taze you, if you threaten to punch them they can and will shoot you.

originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: Domo1

Well...cops actually saved him from eternal damnation. Suicide is a big no no

you must be an optimist.....