UK EU Referendum, IN or OUT?

originally posted by: DAZ21
Today a French minister criticised the UK for signing up for football and trying to turn the game into rugby...

Erm...no...we signed up for a common market and the German-French pact have slowly transitioned this common market into a United States of Europe...so who changed the game?

Erm... no... we signed up for precisely what we are a member of now. The fact that some of our politicians decided to emphasise the common market aspect of it doesn't change the state of things.

Cameron has already backed out of ditching the criminal...er...I mean human rights act.

... which was created and written by us in the first place.

The only answer is to leave, there's no reason to stay that can be backed up by a good argument.

So which country do you intend to emigrate to? One that doesn't accept foreigners and doesn't believe in human rights, perhaps?

originally posted by: ukmicky1980
Also, forgot to add to the above,

If Britain does vote to leave, and we cant agree favourable trade terms, and exports to the EU end up costing more, what is Britains back up plan?

Another issue i know is going to get brought up in this thread is the immigration issue, while I agree that non contributing immigrants shouldnt be drawing off our system, immigrants that have came and are working and contributing to the economy should be allowed to stay, and im in favour of an immigration system similat to Australia, based on skills and the need for that skill.

Mick

As an employer, I don't like the idea that the Government should mandate which skills that are valuable for me and that I need.

originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: DAZ21
Today a French minister criticised the UK for signing up for football and trying to turn the game into rugby...

Erm...no...we signed up for a common market and the German-French pact have slowly transitioned this common market into a United States of Europe...so who changed the game?

Cameron has already backed out of ditching the criminal...er...I mean human rights act. And has backed down on the free movement law...so what half-assed changes is he going to get for us? Nothing worthwhile really. If he did manage to Europe would find a way of going back on their word after the referendum anyway.

The only answer is to leave, there's no reason to stay that can be backed up by a good argument. In the end it's just a corrupt state. FIFA is like a microcosm of the EU, full of heinous individuals getting insanely rich and trying to stick to their sinking ship...Blatter comes to mind....so corrupt he knows he's untouchable and these are the same type of people that run the EU machine.

Voting for such an institution is practically handing what's left of the small man's power to untouchable bureaucrats....

The plan was always to have a "United States of Europe" with a federal government. The British public would never have voted for that after fighting World War II. So they were told it was going to be all about having simplifying export regulations to boost exports, and open borders so that we could have cheap holidays.

Still, it appears that Britain itself is gradually moving in the direction of transforming into a federal system.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
My opinion is that the EU has to rethink it's core policies on immigration and national restrictions, each nation should have more say about it's own rules. When Cameron initiates the Bill of Rights, it should solve some things and I am sure there is more that can be done within the UK to sort a lot of the issues.

Should it? So far the has not been a word on what that bill will contain, aside from that those in power don't want people in jail to vote (which we, incidentally, put into the European Convention of Human Rights that we then presented to the rest of Europe).

a reply to: ukmicky1980

For me it's in. I work in professional services (management consulting) and the company has clients all over the EU. That is, different from a manufacturing company who only ship goods abroad, we send our people abroad to work at our customer's sites for some time. The common market and free movement of people has been a huge boon. Without it, we would not have provided nearly as many people in the UK with jobs. While a manufacturing company can possibly get around tariffs, we can't, and applying for work permits all the time is not an option - it takes a long time and we often have to be with customers within days.

The debate about leaving has already been damaging. We are not expanding in the UK anymore, instead setting up new offices within the EU (and within the Schengen area), and that's where we are hiring new staff. If there would be an "out" result, there may be lay-offs at the UK offices since they are sized for the EU market, not for just the UK.

a reply to: moniker

If they all had to leave and reapply that would be a logistical nightmare. I'd imagine a huge contingent would just stay, work cash in hand and go the 20 year naturalisation route. There's no way there would be enough resources to track them all down.

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015
a reply to: moniker

If they all had to leave and reapply that would be a logistical nightmare. I'd imagine a huge contingent would just stay, work cash in hand and go the 20 year naturalisation route. There's no way there would be enough resources to track them all down.

It depends on the specific country obviously, but most Northern European countries have fare more advanced systems and procedures for keeping track of their inhabitants than the UK. With real-time population registers, ID card requirements and well connected systems, those countries knows exactly who are where at almost any time.

Working cash in hand is usually not an option except for low paid, one of jobs but you would still have to pay rent, utilities etc through banks.

Naturalisation usually takes 3-5 years, not 20 years.

So which country do you intend to emigrate to? One that doesn't accept foreigners and doesn't believe in human rights, perhaps?

I don't intend to emigrate, I won't run away from problems like most immigrants do, I'd stay and fight to make my country better if I had to. If I was to emigrate though, I'd choose somewhere with a bit of common sense. Australia or New Zealand perhaps.

a reply to: moniker

It takes 20 years if you're here illegally. 3-5 is if you're still here legally which those people avoiding reapplication wouldn't be.

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015
a reply to: moniker

It takes 20 years if you're here illegally. 3-5 is if you're still here legally which those people avoiding reapplication wouldn't be.

I see where you are coming from. I had Britons living in the rest of the EU in mind.

a reply to: ukmicky1980

What if the polls before the general election were NOT wrong ?

The now infamous polls suggested the closest election ever and the certainty of a hung parliament, meaning yet another coalition would be most likely.

There was shock in the media when the results showed that the polls had been completely wrong and the Tories got a clear majority, leading everyone to question the validity of polling.

What if they were correct and the election - the voting system - had somehow been rigged?

That means whoever rigged it has the art mastered and will do the same for the EU referendum.

This is just a crazy 'what if', but i do believe that the TPTB would not allow the public to vote on the UK's participation in the EU unless they were certain to get the result they desired.

Sure they'll let you vote on the general election because all of the major parties answer to the same honchos, but an in/out of Europe vote is a big deal - a big deal breaker for many big corps.

So might the general election have been a dry run for rigging the EU vote?

originally posted by: DAZ21
I don't intend to emigrate, I won't run away from problems like most immigrants do, I'd stay and fight to make my country better if I had to.

Well, then I suggest the UK does the same for the EU: don't run away from problems (the UK partially created themselves) and fight to make the EU better. The World, even!

a reply to: moniker

So far the talk is creating a Bill of Rights that allows for deportation of criminals that are currently protected under the HRA.

Also for preventing benefits tourism, for example the hordes of immigrants that arrive in Italy, France all intending on the UK for benefits, such as those that also appear from Asia for one day, using false ID and doing paperwork and getting benefits back to where they went to while pretending being in the UK.

For creating a fairer system where immigrants comply with a system that prevents corruption and milking the system.

For creating an ethos in the UK of ethics and fairness where nationals and those that have paid into the system are those that can access it's benefits system.

Also for preventing NHS tourism, where it is known that people from around the world have used the free health service despite not being national to the UK or EU and not being citizens here.

All of those things are available if you look on MSM, I suggest you research it as I am too busy to do that for you.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

In an ideal world the EU would be adaptable and fair but as it is, there are barriers in place for true democracy within it's system.

I would prefer the UK being part of the EU but there are things that need resolved and so far those things have been blocked by other member states.

I'm a definite no, as scraping the human rights act for camorons British constitution is insane. Any Brit with sense would vote to stay, if only to avoid the tory madness.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: moniker

So far the talk is creating a Bill of Rights that allows for deportation of criminals that are currently protected under the HRA.

Also for preventing benefits tourism, for example the hordes of immigrants that arrive in Italy, France all intending on the UK for benefits, such as those that also appear from Asia for one day, using false ID and doing paperwork and getting benefits back to where they went to while pretending being in the UK.

For creating a fairer system where immigrants comply with a system that prevents corruption and milking the system.

For creating an ethos in the UK of ethics and fairness where nationals and those that have paid into the system are those that can access it's benefits system.

Also for preventing NHS tourism, where it is known that people from around the world have used the free health service despite not being national to the UK or EU and not being citizens here.

All of those things are available if you look on MSM, I suggest you research it as I am too busy to do that for you.

All those things are not related to human rights and are things that other EU countries are struggling with even more (as most of them have more generous benefits systems than the UK). They can be solved without interfering with basic human rights.

I suggest you do more research on the EU treaty and agreements unless you are too busy.

originally posted by: Anubis259
I'm a definite no, as scraping the human rights act for camorons British constitution is insane. Any Brit with sense would vote to stay, if only to avoid the tory madness.

Same here, but not for the same reasons. I have always voted conservative and intend to keep doing so (unless they decide to go completely police state bonkers).

I'm a definite out.

We import far more from the EU than we export to it, and even if it was the other way around it wouldn't matter, it's scare mongering, plus we pay £50odd million per day for the privilege.

Juncker & co are hard line socialists, they are determined to expand the size of Europe as much as possible to try and make it more powerful, but they are doing this by absorbing Eastern states that used to be part of the Russian Empire, and that is creating a lot of friction with Putin, ala the Ukrainian crisis.

If they are allowed to continue it will end in war, there is no doubt about it at all, plus the EU as it exists now is bound to fail, you can't in effect buy other countries and prop them up with the money taken from other countries like the UK, Germany, etc.

It's a socialist fantasy that is being pursued to make a few people extremely powerful at the cost of everyone else, I won't be sending my son to fight the Russians to protect the interests of a few power hungry lunatics.

a reply to: ukmicky1980

Lets get out the quicker the better just as many cars come from EU to UK the same with other products so they can't risk spitting the dummy out!

a reply to: Jonjonj

Ever heard of the British Empire, we can trade anywhere and everywhere STUFF Europe we joined the ECC the European Economic Community NOT the U.S.E United States of Europe.