Meanwhile..... In the South China Sea.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Greathouse

And you talk about the way I post. Prove me wrong then, since you're such an expert on military matters. Prove that Seventh Fleet will stop China from doing what they want, and the Philippines and Vietnam are more capable than claimed.

since you're such an expert

I never claimed I was an expert that is your claim.

Prove that Seventh Fleet will stop China from doing what they want

Again I never claimed that I said they would serve as a deterrent.

the Philippines and Vietnam are more capable than claimed.

They are more capable than you claimed. Your post for the Philippines only mentioned five aircraft in the Air Force.


Seriously zap I know you're embarrassed and burning up inside because you were ill informed on your first post that trashed this thread. Is there any chance you will salvage your reputation as an adult acting out of such anger?

a reply to: Greathouse

Stop foisting your attitudes on me. I made a mistake, it happens. I didn't "trash this thread" either.

You didn't say Seventh Fleet would be a deterrent?

There's this little force you might have heard of it's called the seventh Fleet it's a force permanently stationed in that area. China is not going to move as long as the seventh Fleet is there. Our presence is enough to keep China from acting for now.

That sure reads like you were saying they wouldn't do anything with Seventh Fleet there.

Yes I only addressed aircraft, because their navies are even worse. The biggest ships in the Philippines Navy are former US Coast Guard cutters. A number of their ships were acquired by them from the US after the end of WWII.

Vietnam, again is in a little better shape, largely thanks to Japan, who gave them six patrol craft. They're still looking at a frigate as one of their largest classes of ship.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes the seventh Fleet would be a deterrent even if there is only one ship there. Because it is backed by the entire might of the United States if you did not know that.

After a cursory check of the Philippine navy. They have three frigates, 11 Corvettes, and 38 different types of patrol craft. That is more than enough to do reconnaissance in this Spartely islands.

And again like I've said throughout this thread. That is not enough to stop China but that is enough to patrol on their own.

a reply to: Greathouse

So which is it? You didn't say they were a deterrent, or you did say they were a deterrent?

By the time that the rest of the US Navy could get there China would have missiles in place and be ready for them. It would be an extremely ugly fight, and they'd be hard pressed to get them out.

a reply to: Zaphod58

If you would've read the OP you would know what I said. The current US presence is enough to keep China from acting aggressive militarily. The other countries involved in the conflict should be doing the reconnaissance and protest. US forces should be held in reserve.

a reply to: Greathouse

If China decides to act, US presence won't stop them. They believe that they are destined to rule that area and no one can or will stop them.

You're looking at numbers, not capability. Their ships on paper are enough to do the mission, in reality some of them are barely serviceable. To make a base in the area, they deliberately grounded a ship on a reef. They're still using Destroyer Escorts from WWII as Corvettes.

a reply to: Zaphod58

if China reacts in haste and shoots down say a Philippines plane. That leaves the US room for diplomatic maneuvers and diplomacy is how the whole world is hoping this issue is resolved.

If China shoots down a US reconnaissance plane it will be a completely different issue. That is one point of my thread why are we leading the way?

The second question of my thread which you have yet to answer six pages into it. Is why at this time did the Navy feel the need to bring reporters along is there an hidden motive?

But you're right my OP is a non-issue. That is because of your stance you've refused to address the OP since the beginning.

a reply to: Greathouse

I answered it but you didn't like it. The P-8 is new. They wanted to show it off doing its mission. Instead of laying on a special flight, and sending ships out for them to hunt, spending their budget they packed them onto this flight, which was going to happen either way. It's been done before.

You mean like how if they forced a US recon plane to land in their territory it would be a different matter? Or if the Soviet Union had shot down US planes?

Oh wait....

a reply to: Zaphod58

If you did answer I must have missed it. It must've been during the time you were still insisting that Japan was patrolling the area.

You mean like how if they forced a US recon plane to land in their territory it would be a different matter? Or if the Soviet Union had shot down US planes?

Nobody died when they forced the recon plane down.

Oh wait

Yes please name for me the last time the Soviet Union shutdown US military aircraft? I am well aware of Vietnam and Korea. I suppose the premise you were going to use is the passenger airliner in the 80s?

a reply to: Greathouse

No, that wasn't a US plane.

During the Cold War the Soviet Union shot down 22 US aircraft that were on surveillance missions, from 1949 to 1970, and not over Korea or Vietnam. They attacked several more, damaging some and chasing off others. China shot down at least two as well over the South China Sea.

a reply to: Zaphod58

As apparent by my post above yes I already knew that. Those events happened during the Korean and Vietnam war.


Oh God I said " I already knew that" that's going to set you off even more. Even though just like before it was already mentioned in my reply to you so. So of course I already knew it.

a reply to: Greathouse

They weren't over Korea and Vietnam. They were in international airspace in some cases, and a state of war did not exist between the Soviet Union and the US.

You can hand wave it away all you want, but the fact is that US aircraft were shot down, during a time when no state of war existed, nowhere near a conflict zone, and nothing changed. What makes you think it will be any different today with the leadership we have now?

I love how you talk about my attitude and the take one that's even worse with other people. Pot meet kettle.

a reply to: Zaphod58

They weren't over Korea and Vietnam. They were in international airspace in some cases, and a state of war did not exist between the Soviet Union and the US.

During the Korean War Russian radio transmissions were picked up regularly while fighting in Mig Ally. We may not have technically been at war with China but it sure seem that way when 250,000 troops poured over the border and besieged our men at the Chosan reservoir.

In Vietnam also it is known and documented that Russian pilots were flying North Vietnamese planes.


So as I recite these facts to you wave your hand and dismiss them.


And I love how you went from being a aircraft maintenance man to Never ever being wrong on any military matter anywhere in the world.

a reply to: Zaphod58

You know what Zap? It's pretty evident all we're going to do is get angry at each other in this debate. I may have become a little aggressive again it happens when you defend your position against everyone for six pages.


So I apologize if I offended you but our debate is going nowhere so I quit.

~$heopleNation

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: Zaphod58

They weren't over Korea and Vietnam. They were in international airspace in some cases, and a state of war did not exist between the Soviet Union and the US.

During the Korean War Russian radio transmissions were picked up regularly while fighting in Mig Ally. We may not have technically been at war with China but it sure seem that way when 250,000 troops poured over the border and besieged our men at the Chosan reservoir.

In Vietnam also it is known and documented that Russian pilots were flying North Vietnamese planes.

It was well over a million Chinese that poured across the border into North Korea. 40,000 U.S. Marines killed roughly a million alone at the Chosen Res on their way out.

Russian fighter pilots were flying NK marked Migs at the start of that war, they did till they started losing a lot of pilots to U.S. Navy Sabers. The Chinese went all in as well, till they started getting pushed back north. Then they came to the table and wanted a deal, they didn't when they were winning but the whole Chinese Army could not hold off the very determined U.S. Military looking for pay back.

The Russians and Chinese do not like us playing in their back yard but we do not like their Communism forced on other people in a big way, so they can shove it. The U.S. will NEVER allow Communism to spread, even if they do supply Wal-mart. They have been very, very lucky lately with one very busy former President with another agenda and one absolute moron of a current President.

Japan will build what it needs to push China back, as they actually build quality things and can build them quick at the same time lol. The older Japanese that hate anything to do with war after living through WW2 are just about gone. The current Japanese leadership knows they have to counter China and do it in a big way very soon. They can only do that by building a few dozen nuclear weapons just so China knows that they can not be pushed around without huge consequences. Especially since the U.S. has not made it clear enough to them to not bully anyone in the area or they would be risking a devastating attack from us.

a reply to: SheopleNation

A few B-2s would make that Island a reef again and they would never see it coming lol. The next time a Typhoon heads that way, they should plan to bomb it right behind the storm so when the Chinese return they would be like AH, OH,rut roh, now we go home lol.

originally posted by: Patriotsrevenge
a reply to: SheopleNation

A few B-2s would make that Island a reef again and they would never see it coming lol. The next time a Typhoon heads that way, they should plan to bomb it right behind the storm so when the Chinese return they would be like AH, OH,rut roh, now we go home lol.

One 130 with one daisy cutter would get that done so much more efficiently.

originally posted by: Gothmog

One 130 with one daisy cutter would get that done so much more efficiently.

That would, but technology has considerably advanced since Vietnam. If you want to talk efficiency, a MOAB dropped from a 130 would be even better. ~$heopleNation