Meanwhile..... In the South China Sea.

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

If you would've read the thread you would see that my main question is why are we leading the incursions.

My response went directly to that question. The other nations involved quite simply CAN'T lead the defense. Your use of the term incursions is wrong. An incursion is an offensive attack. The US is leading a DEFENSE against Chinese incursions. The goal is of course to get our allies in the region to work together and build them up to take the leadership role, but right now they simply can't, and if we wait until they can there will be nothing left to defend. China is actively STEALING land.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Baloney

The reason we are there is because if we are not China will do more than warn, they will attack and sink vessels from other nations. They refuse to allow the Philippines to resupply it's own territory.

Again you addressed it to the reason we are there, not the reason we are leading the fight. There's this little force you might have heard of it's called the seventh Fleet it's a force permanently stationed in that area. China is not going to move as long as the seventh Fleet is there. Our presence is enough to keep China from acting for now.

If you haven't heard, the Philippines has aircraft, Vietnam has Aircraft and Taiwan has a sizable Air Force. Those are three of the nations involved in the dispute with China in the south Chinese sea.

No all you've done is what you continually do and I hope the mods are watching it. You ignore the OP jump in on the end of the thread and take any applicable stance were you think you can get in a long and involved debate.

Oh yeah I almost forgot........


Incursion

noun
1.
a hostile entrance into or invasion of a place or territory, especially a sudden one; raid:


Pay attention to that word after the bold it says or.


Now believe me when you're flying into a protested airspace the people on the other end consider that hostile.

a reply to: Greathouse

The Vietnamese and Philippine militaries won't even slow China down. They're primarily patrol craft with outdated fighters mixed in. Their pilots don't get a lot of training time in either.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Ya think?

So are you claiming they aren't even capable of flying patrol flights? And did you skip the whole part of the post where I said I believe the seventh Fleet's presence in the area is enough to keep China in check?

How about Taiwan are they capable?

a reply to: Greathouse

Seventh fleet is based there but doesn't stay there. They go where the Navy needs them. That could be the Gulf, or anywhere else. If China acts up while they're gone, it's most of a week to get another carrier group there or longer.

Vietnam and the Philippines can fly some patrols, but even that's seriously limited.

The Philippines has something like three or four aircraft that could patrol, and only one is an actual maritime patrol aircraft. They have nothing that could act as a fighter and their attack aircraft are old.

Vietnam is slightly better. They have no actual maritime patrol aircraft, but they at least have Su-30MK2, and Su-27s.

Taiwan is in the best shape of any of the three. They're about to upgrade their F-16s to an AESA radar, and have at least basic Aegis systems on their ships.

originally posted by: Greathouse

Again you addressed it to the reason we are there, not the reason we are leading the fight. There's this little force you might have heard of it's called the seventh Fleet it's a force permanently stationed in that area. China is not going to move as long as the seventh Fleet is there. Our presence is enough to keep China from acting for now.

Except I actually posted a source that shows China IS acting. Seriously, you keep claiming you already know everything that I posted, then you go and make a claim that shows you don't know anything. China is currently ACTIVELY INVADING. The 7th fleet is not stopping them.

If you haven't heard, the Philippines has aircraft, Vietnam has Aircraft and Taiwan has a sizable Air Force. Those are three of the nations involved in the dispute with China in the south Chinese sea.

Are you suggesting they are able to win a war vs. China? If so that's crazy. Philippines military equipment is ancient. If they can stop China they would have. China is actively stealing land from the Philippines. It's happening today, as we speak. The only nation that can stop it is the USA currently.

No all you've done is what you continually do and I hope the mods are watching it. You ignore the OP jump in on the end of the thread and take any applicable stance were you think you can get in a long and involved debate.

Zaphod is a mod, so they are here. I was not at all trying to get into a debate, I was very polite and posted a source for you to read. You obviously did not read it, claim you know everything, and then go about posting in a manner that shows you did not read the source at all.

Oh yeah I almost forgot........


Incursion

noun
1.
a hostile entrance into or invasion of a place or territory, especially a sudden one; raid:


Pay attention to that word after the bold it says or.


Now believe me when you're flying into a protested airspace the people on the other end consider that hostile.

It's not their airspace. Lose your attitude and maybe you will learn something. The Chinese are invading their neighbors and then claiming the land as their own.

By your definition Mexico can claim Texas and if the US sends in troops we are invading Mexico. China is the invader.

Lose your attitude, lose your belief you know it all, start reading.

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: Zaphod58

Ya think?

So are you claiming they aren't even capable of flying patrol flights? And did you skip the whole part of the post where I said I believe the seventh Fleet's presence in the area is enough to keep China in check?

How about Taiwan are they capable?

So they fly patrol craft for 20 years while China creates fortifications, steals land/resources, and the US watches.

How exactly does that help the situation? The US has the power to do more than watch. The Philippines does not. How does them sending one of their few craft to watch China steal their land rectify the problem?

Stop talking about the 7th fleet being there is a deterrent. It's not.

If you want to argue the US should remove itself from Asia and let China take it all then make that argument. I would disagree, but it's a coherent argument. Arguing that the US can sit back and watch and China will back off is not.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Seventh fleet is based there but doesn't stay there. They go where the Navy needs them. That could be the Gulf, or anywhere else. If China acts up while they're gone, it's most of a week to get another carrier group there or longer.

They only leave that area of operations rarely and when they do the entire 7th fleet is not deployed. ( admiral Halsey in the battle of Leyte gulf still reverberates through the navy's ears)

The Philippines has something like three or four aircraft that could patrol, and only one is an actual maritime patrol aircraft. They have nothing that could act as a fighter and their attack aircraft are old.

Everything I've looked at list considerably more aircraft than that. I never said they would have to be fighters to do reconnaissance.

Vietnam is slightly better. They have no actual maritime patrol aircraft, but they at least have Su-30MK2, and Su-27s.

It doesn't actually have to be maritime aircraft to do reconnaissance either. They have troop transport and cargo aircraft that could just as easily do the surveillance. Plus Vietnam also reclaimed an island in the Spartely's not sure if they have an airstrip on it though.

But I agree Taiwan is the most able.

Okay now back to the OP. Why do you think the U.S. Navy took it upon themselves to take reporters on this particular patrol?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I suppose you made all these predictions why you were gazing at your crystal ball?

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I suppose you made all these predictions why you were gazing at your crystal ball?

I don't need a crystal ball. It is happening right now, today, as we speak. I sourced it. My goal was to show you what is actually happening since you clearly did not know.

Instead all you want to do is deny it and start an argument.

So tell me, if China is at this very moment actively stealing land, what would cause them to stop?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Except I actually posted a source that shows China IS acting. Seriously, you keep claiming you already know everything that I posted, then you go and make a claim that shows you don't know anything. China is currently ACTIVELY INVADING. The 7th fleet is not stopping them

The Philippines, Vietnam, Burnei, Taiwan and Malaysia are also reclaiming islands.

Zaphod is a mod, so they are here. I was not at all trying to get into a debate, I was very polite and posted a source for you to read. You obviously did not read it, claim you know everything, and then go about posting in a manner that shows you did not read the source at all.

Read the above quote. When debating you I guess it does appear like I know everything.

it's not their airspace. Lose your attitude and maybe you will learn something. The Chinese are invading their neighbors and then claiming the land as their ow

I know it's not their airspace. But it's contested airspace where the Chinese military is building a base. Again everybody's technically invading there are overlapping claims.

By your definition Mexico can claim Texas and if the US sends in troops we are invading Mexico. China is the invader.

Completely incorrect. The whole point of this thread was that the countries with claims to the land should be doing the most active patrolling. Without even realizing it you agreed with my position with your skewed logic.

Lose your attitude, lose your belief you know it all, start reading.

That's the third time you've made that claim in 3 threads which explains the real reason you're following me around and engaging me in endless debate.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I suppose you made all these predictions why you were gazing at your crystal ball?

I don't need a crystal ball. It is happening right now, today, as we speak. I sourced it. My goal was to show you what is actually happening since you clearly did not know.

Instead all you want to do is deny it and start an argument.

So tell me, if China is at this very moment actively stealing land, what would cause them to stop?

Instead all you want to do is deny it and start an argument.

I never denied any of your claims, I told you I was aware of them. And if you would've bothered to read the thread you would've never posted them in the first place.

So tell me, if China is at this very moment actively stealing land, what would cause them to stop?

Again with all your knowledge you posted inaccurate information. Vietnam and the Philippines are also claiming reefs and islands in that area. I personally believe China's claims are fraudulent because of what I have read in the last few years on this dispute.


I've been in these debates with you before. You will never give one Inch, when a point of yours is proven wrong you just move the goalpost. Your all-consuming goal with these tactics is to get the last word in so be my guest.

19th

originally posted by: Greathouse
I've been in these debates with you before. You will never give one Inch, when a point of yours is proven wrong you just move the goalpost. Your all-consuming goal with these tactics is to get the last word in so be my guest.

Completely false. I try to correct ignorance. If you wish to remain so be my guest. Enjoy.

a reply to: Greathouse

Seventh Fleet is CSG 5, which is their big gun, the Washington and two escorts. CSG 5 deploys to the Gulf and anywhere else. When she does that leaves DESRON 15, which consists of seven destroyers. Some of those are detached and deployed when the Bonhomme Richard is deployed with her MEU, which is about as often as CSG 5 is deployed. That leaves them four destroyers, three SSNs, if they're not in use, two LS Ds, and four MCMs for ships. Not much of a deterrent.

As for the Philippines, they have more aircraft than that, but you don't send an OV-10 or C-130 to do maritime patrol, unless they're modified for it. That's the entire point of having patrol craft. You tie up all your aircraft doing patrol and you no longer have them when you need them. Part of patrolling is using sensors to find ships in the area. A non maritime patrol craft, or even a non fighter doesn't have those sensors, so you have to find objects by eye, which means you miss a lot.

I never said they had to be fighters to do recon either, you need fighters to keep an eye on what the other side is doing when they come into your airspace. You wouldn't send an F-27 to shadow an H-6. Patrolling your airspace is all fine and good, but how are you going to defend it if you need to?

As for this flight, the P-8 is still new. The Navy wanted to show it off, and this flight was convenient without having to lay on a special flight.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thank you for verifying what I said.

a reply to: Greathouse

And did you read that post? Seventh Fleet isn't much of a deterrent, and the Philippines and Vietnam aren't capable of doing much.

Seventh Fleet is a tripwire force. If China rolls in in numbers they're not going to stop them, even with everything they have. But they're going to slow them somewhat and buy time for other forces to get in place, although if CSG 5 and Bonhomme Richard are gone DESRON 15 isn't going to do much. And their fight is going to piss off the US and get the population behind the fight. That's their real deterrence.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes I read your post. I just took it with the same grain of salt as your original reply where you were mistaken. And it took you three pages to admit that fact.

a reply to: Greathouse

And you talk about the way I post. Prove me wrong then, since you're such an expert on military matters. Prove that Seventh Fleet will stop China from doing what they want, and the Philippines and Vietnam are more capable than claimed.