Baltimore statute on switchblade knives. What exactly does it mean?

originally posted by: ItVibrates
a reply to: Greathouse
Well it seems pretty clear and unambiguous to me, but I am trained to read legalese (which exists to be clear and unambiguous).

If you want to better understand how to read legislation and case law--go to law school. We dont spend 6 years JUST getting drunk.

The problem is, that makes law inaccessible to any typical yet well reasoned man. That isn't justice, nor is it liberty. And when a judge's default is "Ignorance of the law is no excuse", combined with the 6 year hurdle between me and illumination of my ignorance (while still paying his employer for the privilege of having him talk down to me)....

No wonder I walk around pissed off all the time.

a reply to: ItVibrates

Then please expand. Honestly I'm not taking aside I'm just trying to debate. No sarcasm intended I would really be interested in your reply. ( The only reason I threw the sarcasm disclaimer in there is because I'm normally very sarcastic)

It really doesn't matter if it's a switch blade or not.

Whether or not Gray's knife was covered by the Baltimore ordinance, Legal Insurrection blogger Andrew Branca points out, the dispute on this point will make it hard for Mosby to prove that the three officers she charged with false imprisonment lacked probable cause for the arrest:

If the arresting officer(s) in Gray's case reasonably believed that the spring-assisted knife in Gray's possession fell into the unlawful category, then the legal requirement for probable cause in making their arrest has been met, regardless of whether upon later inspection and assessment the knife is determined to be unlawful....

Someone who is not all that familiar with knives (cops included) could easily mistake a knife for a switchblade.

Link

Good thing I can keep my bayonet. Affix bayonets!

a reply to: Domo1

Makes sense, I doubt there is a cop in the country who has held both a switchblade and a spring assisted knife.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

That is what you get when politicians go and try to "help" people by writing new laws. [Not that it is a new law] Think of all the money that gets spent determining if this knife meets the criteria to be illegal! A big problem with US law is the flexibility on how to interpret them.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Greathouse

Typically, you pop the blade loose with a little knob or something, while flicking the wrist.

Flicking the wrist is not always a requirement. Neither of these
requires a flick.

The one on the bottom would be considered a switchblade. The blade opens automatically via the 'trigger' in the handle.

The one on the top: The blade opens automatically via spring assistance after it is slightly opened ... typically by using the thumb in conjunction with the knob affixed to the blade. (That little button in the handle is just the safety catch)

I know you know, but most people don't realize there are various state prohibitions governing both of the devices pictured above. It always pays to know the laws where you live. Problems happen when someone buys a knife at a local venue and naïvely believes it's legal to carry in their pocket without a CCW permit.

Isn't it lovely?
Most of it may all boil down to whether or not cops were confused by a law concerning knives after they chased down a man that threatened no one with a knife, cut no one with a knife.... He didn't even brandish a knife.
He is dead and the highly paid legal system will argue about whether the cops understood a stupid law written by ignorant elected idiots.

a reply to: Snarl

Those are not gravity assisted knives if there are additional mechanisms that induce opening of the black.

The bottom one looks like a Benchmade knife. The mechanism on the back of the knife you see only does one thing: release the blade from a locked position so it swings freely. I have several Benchmade knives, although haven't seen that particular model before. But the blade marking and copyrighted design tell me that it is indeed a Benchmade. You pull that button back, and flick your wrist. It opens the blade. Pull it back again and the blade unlocks so you can close it. It is the best gravity assisted opening knife on the market. The action swings exceptionally freely.

The top knife i don't recognize. It is possible that the button on there is a spring action. But I have no idea.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Those are mine. The top one is a Gerber (model unknown) and a component of my EDC. The bottom one is a Benchmade (Mel Pardue Design Patent # 6,438,848).

The Benchmade in that picture is fully automatic. Opens with quite the snap. A present from the King of Jordan and mostly a conversation piece.

I've had a bunch like thesebut, they were heavy, drew a lot of negative attention, and weren't as useful as I find their little brother to be. Quality left a lot to be desired too.

One thing about automatic knives a Lot of folks don't know. It's a federal crime to carry them ... and that's way before you run into any state laws. Lots of folks _are_ exempted (e.g. if you're employed by the DoD or if you've only got one arm ... I forget the rest ... it's easy to find in the link). One set of laws can't exempt you from the other. So remember, "No" means no.

a reply to: Snarl

In the state of Texas they have a whole host of restrictions.

While we have a ton of very nice knives, I tend to use only one knife with any frequency:



The "Needs Work" from Kershaw is a fairly cheap knife (i got it for around $40) designed by Ken Onion. The straight edge makes for an amazing sheetrock cutting tool. The angle of the tip also is a fantastic letter opener. At one time I hated the "Wharncliffe" blade design. But I have come to find it a fantastic blade. I use mine every day to open envelopes at work. And to have a little extra defense in my office since I handle cash.

Its a spring open with a "nib" to flip it open with (no release button). A key difference in legality.

If you find yourself needing a utility knife frequently (boxes, sheetrock, carpet, etc), this is the perfect knife.

________________________________________________________________________________________

More on topic: The authorities in my neck of the woods are completely oblivious to any knife that isn't a katana. It is not uncommon for someone from the oilfield to carry a larger knife on their belt. The laws for people working out in the sticks is a little more lenient, and with the nearly purely farm/ranch/oil economy we have it is pretty frequent that someone runs into town and doesn't think about what they are wearing. Including boots covered in carbon or mud. My favorite knife for home use is a nice little tactical S&W that I got from a cop as a gift. I cannot swear they would or would not recognize specifics of knives either. And they are mostly country boys. I can imagine in the city its even worse.

I actually skinned and dressed a hog with that S&W knife once when I had forgotten my skinning kit.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
If you cant afford a lawyer one will be provided for you.

Honestly, if we "dumbed down" legalese to make it "accessible" then it would no longer have the function of being "clear and unambiguous". It is written in such a way (and interpreted in such a way) as to not argue semantics over what a word means.

It might seem elitist, but the alternative is unworkable.

a reply to: Greathouse
Do you have a PayPal? because what you are asking for is what I make my living from. I can write you out a nice document explaining the law, how it applies in the case in question (Freddy Gray, I think is what got you onto this non-issue?), and how it could (we never use absolutes) be interprated by judicial decision. That document will take me about half a day to research and write--are you prepared to pay for it? $1200? $600? what is it worth to you?.

I'm not trying to be rude, but the question you ask in the OP is answered within the quoted text in your OP; maybe keep reading it until you understand it, in the end it will be to your advantage.

a reply to: ItVibrates

Magick. When you must know certain words, in a certain order, its magick. And lawyers, being purveyors of magick, are of the priest class in the US. Leaders, rule makers, etc, etc.

I get what you are saying. And its not that it is really that hard to understand for the most part. But then you get into nonsense like ACA, and the weekly updates we get on how things are to be interpreted....and what you are saying starts to unravel.

But if law has to be "dumbed down" for the regular Joe....why do judges default to 'ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA

So I SHOULDN'T walk around with my 5 lb carbon steel Bat'leth on my back?

a reply to: ItVibrates

Honestly, most of the lawyers provided for you are auctioneers. That raffle off your guilt or innocence for the best deal. And God forbid for the normal man that doesn't take the deal and is found guilty in court. Judges generally don't like that and throw the book at poor people.

originally posted by: ItVibrates
a reply to: Greathouse
Do you have a PayPal? because what you are asking for is what I make my living from. I can write you out a nice document explaining the law, how it applies in the case in question (Freddy Gray, I think is what got you onto this non-issue?), and how it could (we never use absolutes) be interprated by judicial decision. That document will take me about half a day to research and write--are you prepared to pay for it? $1200? $600? what is it worth to you?.

I'm not trying to be rude, but the question you ask in the OP is answered within the quoted text in your OP; maybe keep reading it until you understand it, in the end it will be to your advantage.

Snide comments I love snide comments.


Seeing as you're a lawyer i'm reminded of a old saying.

A good lawyer, knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge.

originally posted by: Greathouse
...

I read that source when I was trying to decide. To me it made a legal decision even murkier. Maryland has gone out of their way to name almost every conceivable knife to classify them.

I'm going to try and explain this, hopefuly it will teach you one little aspect of legal writing and you realise there is method to what you perceive as madness.

(WARNING: contains Latin terminology)

ejusdem generis (of the same sort, kind or nature):

A rule of construction stipulating that where general words follow particular wordsthat denote a class, the general words may be constructed as being limited to that class...

Lets look at the term "Bowie knife", now we in the real world know what a bowie knife is--but lets say somebody owns a collectors edition Ziggie Stardust solid silver butter knife? Thats NOT to be interpreted as a "bowie knife", because a butter knife is outside of the class defined. It makes sense in the real world, but law but be unambiguious so there are ways of reading it that negate any "real world" misinterpretations.

Does that make sense?

nosicitur a sociis (known by its associates):

A contextual rule of construction stating that the meaning of the word or phrase may be ascertained by the words accompanying it.

Lets use the example of "No Skateboarding in the mall". Because it exclusivly states "skateboarding" and nothing more, it could be fair to assume that rollerskates, pogo sticks, or blade scooters are ok--there is no surrounding words to imply that a "class" of vehicle is prohibited, only skateboards. IF the sign read "No skateboarding, rollerblading, or blade scooters in the mall" it has created a class and the interpretation then can allow for excluding other wheeled vehicles... Pogo sticks would still be ok.

a reply to: ItVibrates

You know I can't get through your whole post. Because of your arrogant self righteous and egotistical manners. So you probably are a lawyer.


And being a lawyer you naturally assume that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Part of the OP you did not address I'd like an answer to before you sit on the Supreme Court bench.


Why has Maryland/Baltimore felt the need to differentiate every other type of knife but omit that one. And how could that come in a ruling from a appellate court stating the federal law that has a distinction between the two?


And describe to me the ramifications under common law?

a reply to: ItVibrates

I reread it after I got done laughing. ( at your attempted haughtiness) So you're saying those two legal definitions that you would enter. (after all you seem to be explaining your strategy to approach the case)

Work 100% of the time in all cases where the letter of the law is arguable?