A question for business owners...

I have been in the construction industry a long time and I have never heard of minimum wage to anyone.

...Well, except immigrants that work for their pimps. I don't think they get much but whatever they get leaves the country. I don't know how much of India, Canadian drywall is supporting but...

originally posted by: KawRider9
a reply to: mOjOm

"a fair living wage", is where I get pissy with you types. Why do people think they're entitled to a "living wage" for doing a job that doesn't envolve any skills?

They're spending their lifetime doing work for your business, time they will never get back, and time they are not using to invest in themselves. Why do they not deserve a wage that allows them food and shelter when they are doing a job your business clearly needs? If you didn't need the job you wouldn't be paying someone to do it.

a reply to: mOjOm

The corporate welfare fiasco is stunning. Vestiges of depression era policy that never expired are everywhere.

Taxpayers Turn U.S. Farmers Into Fat Cats With Subsidies ($50B since 2000)

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: mOjOm

The only logical and responsible answer to your question is to let the market dictate wages. If my competition is paying X, then I would want to pay X+1. There would be competition to offer the best pay, and attract employees. In today's world of government controlled wages, there is no difference between McDonald's and Burger King from an employment perspective, because they are both minimum wage jobs (or slightly higher). Both companies can pay what they pay and use the minimum wage law as a scapegoat. Get rid of the law, and then both companies would have to attract employees, and based on what they offer they would find quality employees.

What right now is stopping Burger King from offering a higher wage than McDonalds? If wage competition existed, we would already see it because everyone pays above minimum. That is very obviously not the case however.

a reply to: Aazadan

Again, if you want to spend your "lifetime" sweeping floors, washing vehicles and running errands, I'm more than happy to pay ya 10dph.

You want a better wage than that? Apply yourself and move up the ranks!

Or be like my 40yo dishwasher buddy, living in his parents basement, demanding a better wage because he's "owed"

As a former business owner, I wouldnt ever consider paying less than the poverty wage for any position. That is the correct wage for even the most menial job and every business plan should employ that.

What is it now, a little over 10 bucks an hour now?

And no, that isnt the reason I am a former.

a reply to: mOjOm

I employ around a dozen people. The answer to your question is simple. I will pay them what they are worth. What they are worth is the minimum amount of money they will accept as payment for their labor. Simple as that.

All the minimum wage does is make the poor, the uneducated, the felons, etc. unemployable, because I can always find someone who isn't an ex-con, has a high school education, etc. for minimum wage. The minimum wage is one of the most racist, anti-freedom cons ever perpetrated on the public. And the crazy thing is, most people don't understand business, economics, or basic logic for that matter - so they believe that minimum wage is a good thing. It actually resulted in huge levels of black unemployment because all the white southern factory owners had to pay everyone a "white man's" salary, so guess what? No more blacks were hired. Unintended consequences are a bitch.

What a person asks as compensation is their business. If a guy wants to work for free, fine. None of my business how he makes ends meet. This is freedom, and it is lost on so many people.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
All the minimum wage does is make the poor, the uneducated, the felons, etc. unemployable, because I can always find someone who isn't an ex-con, has a high school education, etc. for minimum wage. The minimum wage is one of the most racist, anti-freedom cons ever perpetrated on the public. And the crazy thing is, most people don't understand business, economics, or basic logic for that matter - so they believe that minimum wage is a good thing. It actually resulted in huge levels of black unemployment because all the white southern factory owners had to pay everyone a "white man's" salary, so guess what? No more blacks were hired. Unintended consequences are a bitch.

Couldn't this be flipped around and say that the minimum wage makes law abiding citizens employable? If you can hire an ex con for $2/hour, how would the honest person ever get $10/hour for the same position?

originally posted by: KawRider9
a reply to: Aazadan

Again, if you want to spend your "lifetime" sweeping floors, washing vehicles and running errands, I'm more than happy to pay ya 10dph.

You want a better wage than that? Apply yourself and move up the ranks!

Or be like my 40yo dishwasher buddy, living in his parents basement, demanding a better wage because he's "owed"

But not everyone can move up. If every single person suddenly had a doctorate and 40 years experience your shelves wouldn't stock themselves, your floors would still need to be swept, your cars would need cleaned, and those errands would still need to be done.

If everyone applies themselves, some will still end up with the bottom rung jobs. Therefore it's not applying ones self that matters when determining a wage but rather the necessity of the job. Are you saying that your business model is only viable if the workers aren't paid enough to support themselves? That sounds like a pretty flawed business model to me.

a reply to: mOjOm

What most people don't realize, or perhaps take into consideration, is that the owner works many more hours in many cases than the employees..

My business was only a laundry and dry cleaning business, but I was open from 6 am to 10 pm.. and most of the time I was there every minute of it.

My son was picked up for school at the shop and dropped off from school at the shop.. back then I was leaving the shop for a while in the evening to go have dinner, but since home was an hour away from the business we ate out lots instead of being too far away.

I had it set up my son could work on homework and my daughter had a place to play ect.. so it was homey for them.. but I was there..

I got a couple Sunday's off a month with the kids because of a lady named Cheri, who became my friend in the end, I considered her more of a friend than anyone else.. One day she looked at me and said give me the keys dammit and go take the kids and don't come back til tomorrow.. see you in the morning..

It became a thing, whenever on a weekend day she was willing to give up her family time so I could have some..and I paid her twice the minimum wage.. named her my manager because quite frankly I could trust her with the keys.

If you were to figure out my hourly salary, paying me time and a half for overtime.. then I would say Cheri made more per hour than myself.

You have to take hours into consideration.. some businesses are just that, to keep prices low enough to be competitive with everyone else (and/ or attract customers to our business over another) we take less ourselves.

a reply to: mOjOm

I have some questions for you..

What type of business do you run?
How many employees do you have?
Location of business?

I can make a business plan based on employee cost and cost of living for you.

Private message me if you like.

a reply to: Aazadan

To put a finer point on it, I would say that it gives law abiding citizens and edge over ex-cons. Of course, there are many factors playing into the whole thing. I've run into some truly amazing, fully reformed felons who I would hire in a heartbeat over most people. Anyway, the reason an "honest" person would get $10/hour is, generally speaking, most cons aren't as reliable, trustworthy and capable as the $10/hour applicant with a clean record.

When you put the minimum price of something at $X, then anything worth less than $X will not sell. It would be like instituting a minimum price for televisions at $2k USD. The only way televisions worth less than $2k would get sold is on the black market where there is no minimum price. Same goes for people whose labor is not worth the minimum wage. It's a rather ironic situation where the people you're trying to help actually are hurt by a law.

a reply to: mOjOm
What most people don't realize, or perhaps take into consideration, is that the owner works many more hours in many cases than the employees..

Absolutely correct. You know, it's funny - if there were no "jobs" per se and everyone was an independent contractor, you would see opinions on biz regulations and taxes do a 180 in no time. Everyone should trying running a business and see how onerous taxes and regulations have become. It is very difficult to start businesses in most parts of the US on a shoestring budget. You need serious bankrolling to make anything happen. This used to not be the case.

It's no wonder that these mega corporations are the ones who support more regulation (like Sarbanes-Oxley, Davis Bacon Act, tighter environmental regulations, etc). They take the blow. They've got the cash on hand. Small businesses do not. The more regulations there are, paradoxically, the more large corporations will thrive in the long run due to diminished competition.

Case in point, the requirements to start an IPO have ballooned unbelievably since the 1990s. Back then, it was much easier to go public. Now, it takes a boatload of cash and an army of securities lawyers. This is good for blue chips, because it means people have fewer options for what to invest in. This is all by design, under the guise of "protecting the public". Hogwash! /rant complete

originally posted by: mOjOm
This is a simple question that, hopefully, will receive some honest answers from those of you who employ people making the current minimum wage. If the government were to repeal all of the minimum wage laws in the U.S. what would you consider to be fair living wage for new hires with little or no experience? Would you keep hiring people at the same wage as you do now, or would you decrease/increase wages? Considering the fact that minimum wage jobs are called that because employers pay the lowest possible wages allowed by law, how would the removal of those laws affect your decisions regarding what fair pay is?

I am addressing this to business owners, not those who think they know what business owners would do in this situation, but the actual owners themselves. Please take the time to consider the question and give an honest answer if you choose to respond.

I'll keep it brief. You are asking the WRONG question.

What a business owner considers to be a fair living wage is not how they make a decision on what to pay.

Business owners pay their employees what the market will bare.

The least amount possible while retaining the talent necessary (keeping turn-over sufficiently low) .

Losing employees regularly is expensive..training and customer dissatisfaction with inept service as new employees come on-line.

Unhappy employees cost money...service sucks.

What competitors for the same talent are located nearby that could hire your people...
What are those people competing for the same talent nearby are paying ...
What it costs to train a new employee (related to turn-over and keeping it low)
And yes, what the Federal or State Gov. permits you to pay..

All of that factors in...but "what you feel is a fair living wage" has nothing to do with it.

Businesses are not the league of justice. They are designed for profit. Math, laws and market forces determine a businesses minimum wage.

If any business owner was to skip the math portion and just charge what they think is "fair" for their goods without concern of expense...and pay their people what they "felt" was "fair"...they would be bankrupt in short order.

Market forces and the law dictate wages, not sentiment.

a reply to: Guidance.Is.Internal
"white man's wage"? So does the fact that a black man/woman can't get a job mean that minimum wage is a racist con or that the @$$holes that won't hire a black person for the same wage as a white person is racist?

Why would there be a different wage for a black person than a white person doing the same job?

If I accept this as a valid argument, it would have to be an argument in FAVOR of affirmative action, which I am sure you are also opposed to.

The minimum wage is not a "good" thing but a necessary evil because of the fact that there were (and still are) business owners that will exploit anyone they can to increase their profits. If all business owners were noble, decent human beings that recognized that the success of their business lies in the hands of their hired help, minimum wage would not be an issue.

Unfortunately many business think "What they are worth is the minimum amount of money they will accept as payment for their labor". Not what is their labor worth in relation to your business' success.

My current employer is the former type of owner. They DO hire the ex-cons and the poor. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't, but they don't disregard a person because of their social status or record. As a result they have helped many people who would have been "lost causes" become contributing members of society and some of the best employees in the company.

If you own a business and don't want to be the sole operators of the business, then you have to hire somebody else to pick up the slack. Maybe owners should think of what their own time is worth in relation to their employees instead of how little their employees are willing to work for.

a reply to: mOjOm

Why is this so hard to understand? People perform labor. Their labor is worth a certain amount of money on the market. Supply and demand. If you impose a minimum price for labor, people who's labor is worth less than the minimum wage will be unable to secure steady employment. You cry that this is unfair. Hiring them over someone who actually is worth the minimum wage is unfair to the more qualified person I would have to pass up. It's pretty clear you don't give a damn about them.

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
a reply to: mOjOm

Why is this so hard to understand? People perform labor. Their labor is worth a certain amount of money on the market. Supply and demand. If you impose a minimum price for labor, people who's labor is worth less than the minimum wage will be unable to secure steady employment. You cry that this is unfair. Hiring them over someone who actually is worth the minimum wage is unfair to the more qualified person I would have to pass up. It's pretty clear you don't give a damn about them.

First I'd like to ask if you plan on ignoring that "White Persons Wage" comment you made earlier?? I found your logic there interesting but maybe you'd like to skip any further explanation.

Second, why would you have to hire someone less qualified because of the minimum wage??? If there are two people wanting the job and both will take the minimum wage nothing is forcing you to hire the less qualified person. Common sense dictates you would hire the more qualified for the same cost.

You seem to only see things from the perspective that the business owner holds all the power. If you have a position open and are looking for whoever will simply take the least amount of money to do it the competition for the position will always drive the wage down to the lowest possible amount. But what you get for that amount will also be only the most desperate person and the likelihood that that person will dip as soon as something else comes along, leaving the employers back in the position of having to hire again. If an employer has to keep hiring and training new people all the time, it will become more costly in the long run than it would have been if they had just offered better pay and hired someone who felt they were getting what they were worth.

a reply to: mOjOm

You weren't reading closely. "White person's wage" refers to the racial pay discrepancy that existed prior to the minimum wage being instituted. Black and white employment were equal, with blacks being paid less than whites. After minimum wage, blacks were laid off and replaced with whites (primarily in the South), because the minimum wage obliterated the one competitive edge that blacks had.

Yes, of course, you hire the more qualified person if they cost the same. The problem is that the person who is less qualified cannot get a job because their qualifications do not warrant a minimum wage. This is why the minimum wage creates joblessness (among many other reasons). People cannot sell their labor if it is worth less than the minimum wage. It's quite simple.

It doesn't take long for an employee to make themselves worth more than minimum wage (in most industries). As they acquire working knowledge, turnover ends up costing the company money. This is precisely what I said earlier. Your labor is worth the minimum amount of money to keep you doing that labor. I think it should be clear now.