NORAD Returns to Cheyenne, Warns of EMP Attack

a reply to: Phage

Solar flares can cause such damage to our infrastructure, as you already know. So, were you in charge,, what would be your recommendations?

Actually, solar flares cannot cause such damage but geomagnetic activity caused by CMEs can. Sort of. The specific effects are actually quite different. Geomagnetic activity can affect power distribution systems but not electronic devices (directly). Devices can be damaged by fluctuations in the power supply but not by the geomagnetic disturbance itself. If it isn't plugged in, it won't get damaged. An EMP on the other hand can also directly affect electronics, plugged in or not.

As far as protecting the electrical grid, there are various things that can be (and are to a limited extent) being done or planned for. In the case of a geomagnetic storm, probably the easiest to do since they are somewhat predictable, is to shut the system down if a severe event is expected. But there are methods of hardening the system as well.

Protection infrastructure from an EMP attack is more problematic. Such and attack likely not provide much if any warning. And, as I said, such an attack poses a wider risk than geomagnetic activity. So hardening becomes the only real (and very expensive) protection. I understand that the military routinely specifies that electronic equipment be hardened against EMP. I suppose that could be implemented with civilian infrastructure but I suspect the cost would go beyond the "few billion" mentioned in the article. Generating the political will to spend vast amounts of money on something that actually, at this time, has a rather low probability of occurring is problematic. People (and politicians) have a tendency to look at the short term and not to do serious analyses of risk/cost.

In both cases though, in the US, there is the problem that there is not one central authority which can mandate any particular course of action on the matter. Any unified effort would be difficult to implement.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: lostbook

Something's setting up to happen soon.

Yeah.
People have been saying that since...forever. Guess what? Things happen all the time but the things that people think are indications of them don't amount to much.

Change of command: something's going on!
Planned maneuvers: something's going on!
I have a hangnail: something's going on!

Maybe that's intended. Feed the chaos and bull# end of the world theories and soon enough anyone who raises a flag will be labeled a crazy individual or worst... a conspiracy theorist.

a reply to: MrMaybeNot
No need to feed anything. There have always been a certain number of people who see "signs." In everything. Everywhere.
They don't seem to have a very good track record though.

originally posted by: Phage
I would be more concerned about the reasoning behind the initial decision, to move from Cheyenne Mountain. The GAO wondered about it.

Furthermore, DOD's report did not include certain key threats, which we identified in the classified version of this report, and it understated the security issues surrounding the relocation, as detailed in the SEA.

www.gao.gov...

What I found most intriguing about this is that the DOD deliberately withheld information from the Government Accountability Office in order to do as they pleased, and yet were never held accountable...

How does a government expect to be trusted when they aren't even truthful among their own agencies?

Sad thing is that the EMP attack will probably come from our own government.

originally posted by: JHumm
Sad thing is that the EMP attack will probably come from our own government.

as screwed up as our govt. is..and i do think it pretty screwed up..
i dont really see this happening.

My earlier thread on it here www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: lostbook

What a crock of ship. Firstly, there is more US fire power OFF the continental United States than on so that would be a very silly(and final) move on behalf of NK or Iran.

Secondly, is this the same type of threat, with the same type of evidence from the same intelligence agencies (there is an oxymoron if ever I heard one) that led Colin Powell to stand up at the UN and describe why Iraq was badass and needed to be liberated.

Thirdly, what the flux would going into a mountain achieve based on the premise of an EMP attack?. Think about it, the US is hit by an EMP attack and the general population is left with no tech infrastructure to keep modern life sustained the way one expects. What would NORAD have achieved exactly?

Again, all I have read is BS fear-mongering propaganda.

@Shamrock6 - hold on, the US military budget runs into the trillions and are you saying that they still have no defence against this type of attack of which has been on the cards for almost 20 years? I'd be mighty pissed if I was a US taxpayer if this is indeed the case.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

I'm not saying anything like that at all. All I said was to repeat commentary that had been offered to me. I'm no longer in the military so I can't speak as to what is shielded and hardened and what isn't.

When I was in, there was enough gear protected to maintain some degree of operational capability, but not by any means all of it.

ETA: one of the things I was told was that EMP protection isn't "sexy" when it comes to funding. And trying to explain EMP and all it entails causes congressmen and women to get glazed eyes and stare off into the distance. Again, that was back in the mid to late 90s, and I really have no idea what, if anything, has changed in that aspect.

The power grid can be attacked by a combination of computer hacking and kinetics, leaving no trace of the perpetrators. Why would you waste a nuke when there are low tech solutions that won't invoke a retaliatory attack.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

I had to laugh when when I heard over a scanner a few days ago of a suspicious circumstance at the Metcalf station. Somebody took a photograph of it! Police response was 20 minutes.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I have always expected some type of off-line duplicate power system, nuclear even, would be necessary and yes I have no doubt it would be mad mad $$$ "wiring" that into the current system, but, to borrow Bushes quote about the smoking gun mushroom cloud etc, if a real possibility exists, and can have a "history books" effect on the end of the US as you and I know it, then the politicians can go jump - the people are the ones that pay.....and count.

and I suspect a few people will be protected in that eventuality, possibly about 1-3% of the current US population.

NB: If you are familiar with Dynamic Positioning philosophy then duplicate and triplicate redundancy systems is the best way to minimise / eliminate total power failure. L3 (look them up with ties to US military budget) has had this tech for about 15 years......an offshoot of their weapons guidance systems tech.

Cheers for the feedback.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Oh sorry, I guess I should stick to the subject about some other nuclear state like NK doing this to us.

Launched with what - a gigantic sling shot?

originally posted by: FosterVS

originally posted by: rickymouse
Oh sorry, I guess I should stick to the subject about some other nuclear state like NK doing this to us.

Launched with what - a gigantic sling shot?

A really big potato gun.

My opinion... or should I say my 2cents...

China would never attack the US. We buy all the crap they can make on a daily basis. They love that we float their industrial infrastructure.

Russia wont attack. They can barely afford to attack their seperated countries.

And most other countries that might be so stupid to attack can barely lobb a missle next door to themselves.

Welcome to the new "star wars" that Reagan sold the world. Who are we hoping to outspend now.

I think this is a red herring.
1980 chips could be destroyed by the static shock from touching them. Modern chips have snubber diodes on all of the pins to protect them from 20kV shocks.
Electricity will arc 20kV per inch. Most commercial antennas have an intentional 1\8" spark gap to protect the radio from lightning. I expect that all modern power lines have a spark gap (like 3\4" for a 10kV distribution line) to dissipate lightning strike energy. I doubt an EMP could come even close to the energy of a lightning strike. I doubt an EMP attack would have much, if any, effect in 2015.

Wish they would get smart and buy extra transformers for the power grid it's actually insane they havnt.

originally posted by: Oleman
I think this is a red herring.
1980 chips could be destroyed by the static shock from touching them. Modern chips have snubber diodes on all of the pins to protect them from 20kV shocks.
Electricity will arc 20kV per inch. Most commercial antennas have an intentional 1\8" spark gap to protect the radio from lightning. I expect that all modern power lines have a spark gap (like 3\4" for a 10kV distribution line) to dissipate lightning strike energy. I doubt an EMP could come even close to the energy of a lightning strike. I doubt an EMP attack would have much, if any, effect in 2015.

Well the huge power lines are fine little effect by emp they already produce a huge field on their own. Substations are vulnerable however. And we should have the means to easily replace them if needed and we dont.

a reply to: Phage

Happened before

1989 March Geomagnetic storm

en.wikipedia.org...

Blacked out much of Quebec for several hours when circuit breakers on transmission lines tripped

Consider the havoc the 1859 Carrington Event or the 1921 Solar Storm would create today........

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Every single senior military person I've spoken with or read an interview of that addresses an EMP attack says we are overwhelmingly unprepared for it and it is one of the scariest things they have to contemplate.

I would say that's not a good sign.

I bought a BUNCH of canned foods yesterday. Ha.