What do we know about the greys?

originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: TrueMessiah

originally posted by: draknoir2
The very first thing we do not know about the greys is whether they exist.
Let's build on that.

Or we can build upon the fact that this IS the Alien and UFO forum (with a Grey logo BTW) where such discussion is permitted to take place, and the presumption that they do exist can be expanded upon.

I applaud this attitude. It is scientific: 1. Assume X is true. 2. Extrapolate. 3. Assume X is not true. 4. Extrapolate. 5. Compare results.

Much can be learned this way. Reductio_ad_absurdum

AHHHH! This makes sense now! from your link:

Straw man argument[edit]

Main article: Straw man

A fallacious argument similar to reductio ad absurdum often seen in polemical debate is the straw man logical fallacy

And maybe I am missing it but how is your statement
" 1. Assume X is true. 2. Extrapolate. 3. Assume X is not true. 4. Extrapolate. 5. Compare results."
related to:

Reductio ad absurdum .....
is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial,[1] or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance.

Aliens are true by because it is ridiculous to assume otherwise? Because they all must be delusional?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
Aliens are true by because it is ridiculous to assume otherwise? Because they all must be delusional?

No, it is a two way street. What I'm saying is that in science it is a good idea to form an unbiased hypothesis, assume it is true, and test it. Then, consider the alternative hypothesis, consider its implications and then compare the results of both approaches.

Mathematicians do this; Assume X is true and see if there is a contradiction. Assume X is not true and see if there is a contradiction.

When it comes to greys we can make both assumptions and test them and see which is most convincing.

Greys are normally just automatons and memory implants to cover government abductions in truth. The real greys are not even on this planet period.

originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
Aliens are true by because it is ridiculous to assume otherwise? Because they all must be delusional?

No, it is a two way street. What I'm saying is that in science it is a good idea to form an unbiased hypothesis, assume it is true, and test it. Then, consider the alternative hypothesis, consider its implications and then compare the results of both approaches.

Mathematicians do this; Assume X is true and see if there is a contradiction. Assume X is not true and see if there is a contradiction.

When it comes to greys we can make both assumptions and test them and see which is most convincing.

OK. but how does that relate to Reductio ad absurdum? That was my question. do you have any real word examples?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
Aliens are true by because it is ridiculous to assume otherwise? Because they all must be delusional?

No, it is a two way street. What I'm saying is that in science it is a good idea to form an unbiased hypothesis, assume it is true, and test it. Then, consider the alternative hypothesis, consider its implications and then compare the results of both approaches.
Mathematicians do this; Assume X is true and see if there is a contradiction. Assume X is not true and see if there is a contradiction.
When it comes to greys we can make both assumptions and test them and see which is most convincing.

OK. but how does that relate to Reductio ad absurdum? That was my question. do you have any real word examples?

In the most general way the ufo question, and subsidiary questions, can be reduced to basic scientific thinking.
If we examine the ETH we can see if it reduces to the absurd.

One objection is that the can't travel faster than light. But this is not certain. They could have found a way. Even on earth scientists have made sub atomic particles travel through time. So this objection will not make ETH an absurd hypothesis.

Likewise with other objections, it is sufficient to examine them and see if they make ETH absurd. So far it has not proved to be an absurd hypothesis so it is still a candidate hypothesis.

Turning to an Alternative Hypothesis (that they are interdimensional beings) we can see, in the same way, that no argument reduces it to absurdity.

A fusion of these hypothesis is that they are both interdimensional and alien. This idea has not been shown to be absurd either.

To negate any of these arguments requires a very insightful argument and there is none.

What is needed at this point is a more precise and intelligent assessment of the evidence. For example, if it could be shown that some of these craft are real physical craft, that would show they are likely to be alien because they could not have been made here.

But as things stand, none of the above hypothesis can be shown to be absurd.

What we don't need, at this stage, is endless demands for 'repeatable scientific experiments' or unsubstantiated assertions that there are reptilians burrowing tunnels beneath Dulce. We need a comprehensive assessment of the evidence thus far. A good idea would be what the Chinese are doing; getting good scientific and educated minds together to work out what is happening.

As for a real world example of reduction ad absurdum; The basic idea is that we make an assumption or hypothesis and see if this assumption leads to absurd conclusions. For example make the following observation-

1 squared = 1
2 squared = 4
3 squared = 9
4 squared = 16
5 squared = 25
6 squared = 36

Lots of numbers are the square of another whole number so assume that all integers are the square of another integer and see what happens.

Take 12 as the square of an integer. The squares on either side of 12 are 9 (3 squared) and 16 (4 squared), so there must be an integer between 3 and 4 such that, when it is squared, it gives 12.

Apparently, there is no integer between 3 and 4 so we must conclude that our initial assumption - that all integers are squares of other integers - is wrong. So our assumption/hypothesis is shown to be wrong by reductio ad absurdum. The absurdity being that there is an integer, a whole number, between 3 and 4.

The assumption that they are alien has not (yet) led to a absurdity nor has the assumption that they are interdimensional led to an absurdity so we can still proceed with these two hypothesis and see where they lead.

originally posted by: yuppa
Greys are normally just automatons and memory implants to cover government abductions in truth. The real greys are not even on this planet period.

What do you mean by "normally"?
I think it's the opposite.....that the government conducts abductions to cover for the Greys' going overboard with their abductions per conditions of the Grenada Treaty.

a reply to: EnPassant

Not too shabby there. I don't think the ETH or the IDH is absurd, I just don't think its the only valid possibility. The Reductio ad absurdum to the argument might be that we can place any variable in place of the ETH/IDH and get the same results.

To negate any of these arguments requires a very insightful argument and there is none

Its not because there is none, its because it is not falsifiable. So no matter how many valid KNOWN explanations turn up, the ETH can never be ruled out. It's impossible.

What we don't need, at this stage, is endless demands for 'repeatable scientific experiments'

That is also unreasonable, I agree but mostly because the demand is undefined. But if you are serious about data collection, you will need to show a repeatable pattern in the data. And that is why I always ask what separates all the KNOWN things from what you might consider ET or ID?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
But if you are serious about data collection, you will need to show a repeatable pattern in the data. And that is why I always ask what separates all the KNOWN things from what you might consider ET or ID?

Yes, it is these repeatable patterns that need to be studied. I mentioned themes in some posts recently.

ETH cannot be falsified but that says nothing about whether it is true or not. The only option is to go with the hypothesis that makes most sense. Figuring out which one makes most sense is the hard bit.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

p.s.

In the above example, concerning squares, the assumption predicted the existence of a whole number between 3 and 4. This prediction fails so the assumption must be wrong.

Likewise ETH predicts or implicitly asserts certain things.

1. It asserts that it is possible for biological beings to travel vast distances without dying in the process.

2. In a less rigorous way, it suggests that faster-than-light travel is possible.

3. It asserts that humanoid forms (2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms etc) exist elsewhere in the universe. This is a HUGE question for evolutionary theory; how could such similar beings evolve on different planets? Is there a connection between these planets? Is it possible that information, concerning evolution, can be shared between planets? What changes need to be made to our understanding of evolution to accommodate this?

4. Intelligence exists elsewhere in the universe. This leads to questions about the nature of intelligence.

None of these assertions or predictions are absurd so we can continue...

originally posted by: deloprator20000
"How do you know", "do you have repeatable, testable evidence", "how can you trust anecdotal evidence" and whateva.

How about we address these...as a starting point.

How do I know.
I have studied the somewhat famous map o Betty Hill. From the well known abduction case back in the 60's.

Using the work of Ms. Fish as a starting point, I reconstructed the original map using modern astrometric data...in this case he Hipparcos Dataset (117,000 stars). I then constructed an application to convert/redraw the map in 3D...so I could take a "look" from every possible vantage point.

I analyzed the individual stars...I analyzed the mathematical probabilities.

The data seem to indicate that the Grays of Zeta 2 Reticuli are indeed real, and have visited the Earth recently.

Do I have repeatable, testable evidence? Yes. The data is raher fixed now. The "Hill map" is a matter of history, as is the Fish interpretation. The astrometric data is current, and being used by astronomers, astrophysicists, and other scientists today.

So...anybody who wishes to spend the time may do the very same, ad attain the same result. Individual interpretations of this data may vary...but the mathematical, and other "hard" attributes will remain constant.

how can you trust anecdotal evidence?

This is the best part...I'm not using anecdotal evidence!

Please do not think of the original map as anecdotal...the probability of a collection of dots and lines on a piece of paper actually matching anything in the stars is vanishingly small...in this case; on the order of 2.1e-39...

I have no empiric material, but from what I have read we can summarize the Grey's as:

1. Biological beings with souls (i.e, non android, self aware)
2. 3-4 feet of height and then a taller one, twice the height
3. Non-water based (necessary for a life in Space - i.e human bodies can't go to space without help from alien tech)
4. Sensitive skin - non-bullet-proof
5. Doesn't use any exterior protection, clothing, gear etc.
6a. Highly telepathical - mind-readers and can control weaker minds, i.e humans
6b. Photographic memory
7. Feel frequency / vibration of other beings, and can't be "surprised"
8. They have two sexes but bodies almost the same
9. Roswell was not Grey's, they were non-biological bodies (androids) that later was "possessed" by a higher being - called Airl
10. They work for the Reptilians, and are viewed as "workers" (Reptilian / Serpents are the "rulers" of this world but many levels of aliens exists between Reptilians and the Greys "allegedly")
11. They digest some kind of "energy" and produce waste, but very little and only in certain environments outside their ships
12. Highly intelligent - Very rational
13. They don't lie
14. There are several kinds of Greys, just as there are many kinds of humans
15. Can't reproduce - must "build" bodies which seems to be a very difficult undertaking and one of the alleged reasons why they try to create hybrids
16. They don't care about humans - because feelings are not within their realm of thinking, (as such - we must be careful on how we actually cooperate with them and how it will benefit us in the long run)
17. They master TIME and can travel faster than light
18. They have been visiting Earth for million of years
19. The expansion rate of Greys are 2 million / week by 2025 according to the NASA's "future of war" document (the exact number is of course totally insignificant, but rather the fact they seem to be very successful with their cloning / breeding program.
20. There are more than 3 million of Greys on Earth
21. The only reasons Greys are "under" the Reptilians, is not because Reptilians are more powerful, but because Reptilians regard Earth as their "home" (because they were first) and any visitor, Greys included, must follow the rules of Reptilians.

According to the Universal law, higher beings can't do anything without the permittance of the existing population in a world (Earth). Greys are not destructive per se, but I do believe they are egoistic and fulfill their needs rather than doing good for humans.

All of the above statements can be found on various independent sources on Internet. If you ask for a specific number I give you the reference if I can remember it.

OFF TOPIC:

A: This is an alien designated part of the forum, as such - talk of evidence, proof, and scientific reasoning doesn't apply. I know "they" exists. I know they are here. I know some of them are intentionally messing with our lives for purposes unknown.

B: Why do people still report UFO sightings? UFO's are everywhere. And? If you have a HD picture of a UFO that is 2 miles wide on low orbit, then it's interesting. Everything else, we got Youtube.

C: Why this talk of science? Science as we know it on Earth doesn't cope with the realities of E.T life. The ONLY reason scientific measures exists among us humans is because of the weaknesses we have. We lie. We don't remember. We are biased. We have emotions. Aliens don't. They have perfect memory. They don't "assume". They don't let emotions come in their way of thinking. They trust each other. Humans don't.

For example:
If you have never been to Paris, how do you know it exist without being there? How does your friend, that has been there, scientifically prove it? He can't. And according to human reasoning, then Paris doesn't exist until proven and because it can't be proven, then Paris will never exist in the eye of human science. See, an easy example of the absolute limitations today scientists live under and they are supposed to "prove" the existence of Aliens?

a reply to: mryang

Ya know...there is a reason why science is based on empirical observation and repeatability of data.

Virtually EVERYTHING you stated about the Grays is wholly wrong! Has absolutely NO foundation in science. AND, the worst of it is; the Gray's actually have foundation in science...both types.

The classic Grays of Zeta Reticuli...the short ones...are all over 4 feet tall; in fact, average height is just under 5 feet...
The other "flavor" of Gray are called "Nommo" by the Dogon tribe of Africa, they are sometimes called "Tall Whites", "tall Grays"...The Nommo's planet has likely been discovered already...

In any case, in as much as YOU are not a mythical creature, nor a figment of someone's imagination...please afford others the same consideration as you would demand for yourself. In other words, stop relying on the fantasies of others, and demand the application of science!

a reply to: gell1234

The greys are the little creatures who do their reptilian overlord's dirty work
for them.

Hmn.. here is what I believe:

1. They are short gray beings.
2. They are explorers/scientists. (With a head their size/ their anatomy, they are only used for intelligence and mainly data gathering)
3. They are clones, as they do not reproduce.
4. They are sent here by some higher beings, as the ones that come around here are not the real ones.
5. They might do abductions, Skeptical but per abductees: They have a problem with reproducing, so they abduct some people to try to solve this problem. Or, they are abducting to try to make an even greater being.

Tis all I can think of.

I don't know, but I've been told....

(sorry, don't have the mental wherewithal right now to construct a full and proper, alien-grey-themed, cadence call)

The little grey fellas like strawberry ice cream*. Sadly, not a fact as such, but it would arguably make some sense

* www.ghosttheory.com...

It would apppear we know nowt

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
It would be a lot easier to list what we don't know about them:

Everything. Including whether or not they exist outside the imaginations of liars and those suffering from paranoid delusions.

Do you believe skeptics cannot suffer from these same two descriptions?

I'd also like to posit that it is virtually impossible to "prove" anything over the internet, so asking for definitive proof is moot.

I dont think that we know much about them except that they are the bad guys.

a reply to: BenutzerUnbekannt

Following up on my 'greys like strawberry ice cream' post, I chuckled like a chimpanzee when George Knapp mentioned it on Sunday's C2CAM show (31 May 2015)

originally posted by: Zeus050
I dont think that we know much about them except that they are the bad guys.

Actually, depending on which group you are talking about; we may know quite a lot about them...

If we are talking about the Nommo; we know which star they call home, we know a bit about their planet. We know what they look like, from ancient descriptions. We even have an idea of some of their older technologies...

If we are talking about the other group; from Zeta Reticuli...we have descriptions of them, accounts of their technology, from recent accounts. And, best of all; a fair amount of real evidence..(Hill map)...

And, NO we don't know they are the "bad guys"...though I do find it sad that ALL of the most recent posts reflect a total absence of any logical, critical, scientific thought.