Have you had enough of politicians and Banksters and Wars? Well, become a citizen of LIBERLAND.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: JUhrman

Hordur Torfason

That guy is a great example of political activism. If anything he's showing people how they should behave in a democracy. There are many other examples worldwide of people or organization trying to remind the governments they are elected by the people to serve the people. And that when the majority of people want change they have to follow the will of the majority.


I hardly see the relationship with libertarian utopias though.

a reply to: JUhrman

I hardly see the relationship with libertarian utopias though.

Agreed, I really like what he did vis-a-vis politicians and bankers.........and by extension war.

Totally agree with your sentiments about him. Labels aside, I think this fella (in the OP) is maybe applying a similar philosophy of Mr Torfasons, albeit in a different way.

Being from Australia, Libertarian is relatively new concept for me that I have really only discovered since my time on ATS (better than democrat or republican though....imo) so in a way the OP is focused towards our US membership and I see you are from Brussels.......and rather well informed.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
Being from Australia, Libertarian is relatively new concept for me that I have really only discovered since my time on ATS (better than democrat or republican though....imo) so in a way the OP is focused towards our US membership and I see you are from Brussels.......and rather well informed.

Well, libertarians are not really new. We had them here too since a long time. They called themselves anarchists

Basically I agree with their romantic vision of the world similar to the one of a revolted teenager. Just when growing up you also realize the whole complexity of the world isn't something you can easily reduce with concepts such as "no more evil governments and banksters".

Governments should be reformed (voting systems, lobbying, corruptions, ...) but they are still necessary
Banking, financial, industrial systems should be reformed, but they should NEVER be given total liberty.

Why? The reason is simple. A company is an artificial entity. It has legal existence and participates with humans in our society. The sole role and purpose of a company is to maximize profit. Anyone saying this is not true is wrong. It's one of the most basic things I was taught in business class. A company can have a particular culture, but making money is the genetic purpose of companies.

Now what happens in an ecosystem (societies) when you introduce a new species (companies), with no limit to growth, no limit to lifespan, no limit to adaptability and let it competes with the other species (humans, governments, other companies).

It becomes a super-predator and start using and exploiting all the others actors (humans, governments, other companies) as long as it allows it to make money.

If it means hurting people, attacking governments, destroying other companies; they will do it. Because companies are artificial entities, have no morality and don't even really need to be responsible for their actions.

Companies are like the AI in terminator. As long as we can control it everything is OK. As soon as companies become more powerful than the other things we can still somewhat control (governments, individuals), game over.


Libertarianism, anarchy, unregulated capitalism, they are all nice on paper, from an individual perspective. But from a global, societal perspective, they reveal their true dangers. Humans and governments are no longer the only actors in societies. There is a new kind of actor which only tries to maximize profit, even if it means hurting humans and nations and if they can do it, they will.

Up to us to take back the reins of these monsters and regulate the sectors, but if we don't, it's certainly not libertarianism which will save us as it actually supports the suppression of regulations.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
Fingers crossed this works out the way they are hoping.

It'll prove to the world that we don't have to operate with banksters and the military industrial complex dictating our every move, dictating the economy, dictating social construct, dictating tax revenue allocations, so on and so forth.

Except we all know it wont, dont we

a reply to: Sublimecraft

The US Govt and it's criminal buddies will simply find a way to bomb it and reduce it to rubble ...

What I believe in and what I hope society can also adopt:



1. Food, clothing and shelter is not an option that should be dictated by weather or not you have enough currency to afford it or not. They are a necessity.



2. Borders and division among nations are pointless and we should work towards uniting and making a strong planet instead of a strong nation.



3. Everyone deserves a say in huge world decisions and the only way to get everyone's opinion is through a computer program ran voting system.



4. If government decisions was done through a secure computer program where everyone gets a say in decision that will effect them then we would get rid of most corruption.



5. Life should be about pursuing goals that will make you happy and not just settling for a job that will allow you to make enough money to obtain the illusion you are living free.



6. The people volunteering/teaching/healing/helping/feeding/giving should be living the kind of life celebrities live because they contribute to society. Instead of money how about a contribution point system? The more you help others the more you make. Let's make it a goal to help others instead of yourself.



7. Instead of trying to make ourself successful and only focusing on the progression of our lives we should show true humanity and progress together as members of the same species. How can we solve starvation? How can we prevent people from having to live homeless? We throw away a lot of food, there's enough abandoned houses in the world to give every homeless person a home. We need to stand and unite to do what we think is best for us as humans and not what is best for us as a nation.



Separation through borders, currency systems, and beliefs only hurt us as a species. Think of what we can accomplish if we just adopt the thinking of be happy and allow others to be happy.

a reply to: stopxmove

All this require strong democratic government and the regulation of the economy and industry. Basically the opposite of libertarian philosophy.

Libertarians are selling a lie when claiming less government and less regulation increase personal well-being. A lie disguised as a dream.

originally posted by: JUhrman
a reply to: stopxmove

All this require strong democratic government and the regulation of the economy and industry. Basically the opposite of libertarian philosophy.

Libertarians are selling a lie when claiming less government and less regulation increase personal well-being. A lie disguised as a dream.

I dream of a united earth where everyone gets a voice and no group of people run the world. My idea is a socialistic united world ran buy a computer form of government. Basically a program where everyone can vote on important world decisions and everyone can have a say. If they don't agree with any choice they can explain why and it will be shown in a Facebook type news feed where people can read and up vote on alternatives they like. This will allow us to easily determine the most supported idea to solve a problem. This computer based voting system will also allow the language barrier to be broken and allow everything to be translated into the language of your choice.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Very interesting!

I have been a fan of The Principality of Hutt River for some time.

Of the many reasons to move down under, this is up there.

originally posted by: biggilo
Hippy nonsense. What about health care, how is it going to be funded? How are they expecting to deal with crime? They can't.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

$10 says this guy get taken out by said banksters and their psychopath assets.... Oh and the bet is also in Liberland $.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

And they said minarchism doesn't work?
This could work. Really.

If...

1)They allow leased hydro-fracking at extremely low tax rate(the taxes is optional). Private business can drill for free if they pay a fixed yearly lease(the right to drill on the land not a tax on the actual product being extracted). If opted into taxes you are protected by local police/fire etc. If you don't you are not. You would need your own private security/safety firms.

2)Build data-centers and wire it into Croatia's fiber optic networks and sell big data. Export is hosting,clouds,supercomputers,virtual currency generation,etc

3)Build several solar farms to sell to croatia and surrounding countries. Export is solar energy.

4)No corporate taxes whatsoever unless you opt into them. No taxes no legal protection from the liberland government.

5)Build your factories in Liberland. Yearly building lease but all taxes on income are optional.

6)Build movie production studios in Liberland.Hollywood,Bollywood,London tax rate vs optional taxes and no regulations or restrictions.

7)Build banks in Liberland. Export international banking finance.All corporate taxes are voluntary but locations are leased.
Untaxed banks are not protected by the legal system, or local mail.

8)Build television production studios(like news/satellite TV/High definition cable tv etc).

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: biggilo
Hippy nonsense. What about health care, how is it going to be funded? How are they expecting to deal with crime? They can't.

In a libertarian utopia everyone is free to be beaten to a pulp or left dying from a flu without the intervention of pesky government cronies.

You could also cry for help but everyone is allowed to tell you "Dude; it's not my f***ing problem, just leave me alone, OK?"

And there are still people who do not understand Atlas Shrugged is a fiction written by a sociopathic person.

Libertarian countries will still have a police force and civil laws to protect property and persons.
Why you would think otherwise, unless you thing totalitariansim is wonderful.

They would have health care, Docs, etc. but yeah, no free health care. So the overall health care will be high.

If someone doesn't work and wants to mooch of welfare and get freebees, well they won't stay in that country because there won't be any.

What you will probably see is the rise of charities run by religious organizations that will be able to do stuff like feed people without being arrested or fined for feeding the poor as happens in the US frequently when non-government agencies want to help the poor.

It WILL end up being the richest nation on earth in a very short time and will probably have to strictly limit immigration to those with marketable skills that are needed or who are self sustaining.

originally posted by: saadad
a reply to: stosh64

This is a joke. 20 years ago on that land was a genocide. Many people die in war. There is still huge hate between Serbs and Croats and this guy opens a new country.

I'm not far from this new micro country, maybe I pay visit. But I know nearest town Vukovar. Vukovar is not the best place to live in Croatia. Still many buildings are in ruins and life there is not best since government of Croatia steals money year after year.

Actually, that is Croatian soil.

It is really interesting how you wrote that there was genocide but forgot to mention that Serbs were those who did it and completely destroyed city of Vukovar...

There is no shortage of micronations out there, but the fictitious sort (which "Liberland" is) offers no benefits, it is not and likely never will be recognized as any sort of nation, it's passport (if it ever decides to produce one) will not be valid anywhere for travel, it will be looked upon by border agents purely as a novelty item (or as a reason to view you as a suspicious person). It's another Sealand.

Actually, officially there was no genocide in that war. Clams European law. I know there was logors and Serbs massively kill people.

I used word genocide to picture that many people die in that place.

Well I already say that on this soil people are brainwashed. Not to say dumb. Vukovar was destroyed by Serbs but half or even more citizens in vukovar are Serbs.

Liberland is on neutral territory. Of course logic say it is Croatian territory, since it is west from river Dunav. But officially it is no mans land. You probably watched television and hear they say it is Croatian territory. I don't watch television.

Good luck to anyone who actually moves to a craphole on the border of Serbia. Don't get shot! Or blown up, or burned alive, or beheaded while you sleep.

originally posted by: saadad

Well I already say that on this soil people are brainwashed. Not to say dumb. Vukovar was destroyed by Serbs but half or even more citizens in vukovar are Serbs.

Liberland is on neutral territory. Of course logic say it is Croatian territory, since it is west from river Dunav. But officially it is no mans land. You probably watched television and hear they say it is Croatian territory. I don't watch television.

So because there's a majority of Italians in Little Italy NY NY ..it is neutral /Italian soil. Good thinking and nice logic Sir.

Liberland is not going anywhere, cute idea but not going to work on a territory where a lot of blood has been shed to protect it. The man needs to step up his game and buy something bigger expensive and isolated.

a reply to: Exitt

No. If land is under arbitration and both country's can't agree on border and European law says is no mans land. Well then territory don't belong to either country.

And you should reread my post about Vukovar. I was saying that in Vukovar is at least 50% Serbs and Serbs destroyed Vukovar. So I m asking my self how dumb people need to be to destroy their own city?

And things over here are not going anywhere better.

originally posted by: saadad
a reply to: Exitt

No. If land is under arbitration and both country's can't agree on border and European law says is no mans land. Well then territory don't belong to either country.

And you should reread my post about Vukovar. I was saying that in Vukovar is at least 50% Serbs and Serbs destroyed Vukovar. So I m asking my self how dumb people need to be to destroy their own city?

And things over here are not going anywhere better.

Another lie is about Serbs as 50% of Vukovar population. Here you are, check out demographics, it is at its max. of one third or 30-35%.

en.m.wikipedia.org...