Exceptional tax cuts for rich 'good for economy': practice fails - theory is broken

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: Maxmars

Meh...I gotta let it go or it will drive me insane.

I always opt to at least attempt to put aside those injuries I have no way of controlling... but lately am haunted by the realization the millions upon millions of people around the world have come to real harm over the scheme that netted the banks trillions.... and yet it's OK... the whole 99% is theirs angle... "work harder" and you wont be poor they say.... be so meek when faced with the "players"... why is that? Why were they given a gun to point at our heads?

originally posted by: Maxmars

originally posted by: akaal
So was TARP a mistake in 2008? Should we have allowed the banks to fail? Or...was bank failure just BS and wasn't really going to happen anyway? I don't know, this is just my economic ignorance showing through.

No TARP was two things...

1) The definitive exposition of just how "we" are the banking cartel's bitches, and
2) The final lesson for Senators and Congressmen teaching then that they are as guilty as the banks are.

This was not a "surprise".... don't believe the fairy-tale that "no one knew" or "it was a banking "crisis." It was as much a "crisis" as having yourself mugged is a "crisis" to the mugger.


There was no "Banking" crisis... it was a "tax-payer" crisis. We were blackmailed into filling up the teat they emptied.

Once the dominoes fall - there is always someone who wants to convince the rest that they shouldn't be held responsible - you can usually gauge their level of responsibility by the amount of effort they put into denying, deflecting, and misdirecting....

... "we never saw it coming..." yeah... you're still rich though, right?

Thank you for your insight. This whole post has given me much food for thought. Now to try and digest it.

Thank you all for engaging in a great conversation that didn't include the tom-foolery of partisan nonsense.

I hope you can forgive my extra verbose tendencies, I know brevity is wit... I'm just not that witty.

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: Maxmars


Lookie here! Yet another mid-level op-ed about the “surprising” observations that supply-side economics (also referred to as “trickle-down,” “Reaganomics, or my personal favorite – “Voodoo Economics”) actually does not work, and in fact has not worked anywhere -ever - in any western nation that adopted it.

as history has repeatedly and consistently proven, even that "trickle" does not occur.

Shhh don't tell anyone until after Hillary gets elected. Thanks!

originally posted by: akaal
So was TARP a mistake in 2008? Should we have allowed the banks to fail? Or...was bank failure just BS and wasn't really going to happen anyway? I don't know, this is just my economic ignorance showing through.

Honestly, I think they should've bailed out the citizens. Then it would've been an economic boom because of the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of new purchases and when the citizens saved money (those new deposits of currency would've shored up the banks).

Literally millions of American households lost their homes in the fraudulent foreclosure crisis (remember the "robo-signing debacle"?), but they got no relief. And the US economy was losing hundreds of thousands of jobs per month during the financial crisis of 2008-2009.
en.wikipedia.org...

The taxpayers became liable for bailing out the banks & paying off those bailouts through cuts to social services, even though those same taxpayers were the ones who'd lost their jobs & homes in the crisis! So millions of citizens lost their jobs, lost their homes, and then had to pay for the banks to clean up the mess. Even though the investment banks, ratings agencies, and mortgage industry were the main ones who were responsible for it.

But neither party like to talk about that because they're too busy distracting us with ISIS.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

...The taxpayers became liable for bailing out the banks & paying off those bailouts through cuts to social services, even though those same taxpayers were the ones who'd lost their jobs & homes in the crisis! So millions of citizens lost their jobs, lost their homes, and then had to pay for the banks to clean up the mess. Even though the investment banks, ratings agencies, and mortgage industry were the main ones who were responsible for it...

I have always felt that the way events transpired - as ushered by the traditional media and the thespian politicians - made Americans to appear as fools....

... but the fact that the banks exited with stellar profits and the highest compensation for their owners in history, caused us to appear as clowns...

And they are preparing to do it again... This cycle will repeat until they are in overt control... all because we 'believe' in their "money."

This fallacy (Trickle Down Economics) is repeated and repeated as a viable economic system of 'scraps for the masses' by the very group who happens to benefit from not paying their fair share of civilization's costs... how 'bout that?

The whole illogical (and pie-in-the-sky rainbow and unicorn) idea... that the wealthy would spread their largesse around because they were enlightened enough to see the benefit... was given an air of respectability by the U of Chicago's economic think tank and thus paved the way for the debacle we experience today.... Reagan was just their mouthpiece... Milton Friedman their profit ..er, prophet.

Also, interesting that unions are being dismantled with screaming support by the very people they were formed to help ... I think our economic slavery has broken our very minds and spirits... but it's okay in the dwindling middle class's minds, because they, too, could become very rich, someday, somehow, and then they, finally, could avoid paying their fair share of taxes to keep civilization humming, too, and let the other poor slobs in the faceless mob pay it.

Fantasy land... well, a nightmare fantasy land, but fantasy nonetheless... and the far right call us socialistic utopians fantasists.

Bah...

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Honestly, I don't think we can say the farming industry "sold out" because they've been like that from the beginning. US agriculture was traditionally worked by slaves, indentured servants, and sharecroppers.

Oh I am sure it existed in some capacity likely in minor capacity, sometime, somewhere. Maybe before the whole industrial revolution, but even then and much less now making that argument. Well!.... It's like looking for a unicorn in the desert when everybody knows that unicorns are woodland creatures. Right? Oh and never mind the icky fact that unicorns may never have existed to begin with, I mean there is no prof of there existence.

I think politicians are just there to keep you all going in circles with non issues for there sponsors, and the bots and trolls are there to keep you all confounded. and then? Well its kind of like arguing about unicorns grazing habits in a desert.

My mind keeps coming back to the same question. Where is the breaking point? After the middle class collapses, who are the Banks and the "1%" going to draw their riches from? Will the Banks and the "1%" start feeding off each other until somebody has it all? Will the ecomomy just naturally self adjust until the middle class makes a comeback? Has this gone over my head and I'm not making any sense? LOL.

a reply to: akaal

That's the rub.

We just have to hope they have some one world government currency ready to go. I imagine that sort of thing takes a long time to get gunnin

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss "talking about" this as something that has little value...; while it may seem that some are here to confound and obfuscate, or to do nothing more than detract from the dialogue, I promise you people here care deeply about the conversations they have - as well as the subjects they love. As generalizations go, that's a fairly solid one.

I strongly believe (which is to say I can't know for certain) that our voices (specifically here on ATS) are far from "not heard." And in the end, being heard is what matters to anyone not living a cloistered bubble existence. Being heard is a vital part of what defines us.

I'm certain that there is a substantial group of future policy-makers who are listening to us. These people are not afraid to accept that wisdom is not restricted to pretty or handsome talking heads, or a glitzy productions of imagery and soundbites... and it is most certainly not to be swallowed whole from some source who has an agenda.

You find wisdom wherever people actually communicate with one another... not in some cesspool of bitter personal jabs and trash talking know-it-alls who define themselves by how they can parse words to make you feel like an idiot... (and often they have to gang up on you to pull it off)... many of you have experienced the difference between the exposition that we enjoy, and the base rantings and ignorance laced 'angry' posts you find at other places.

We actually do good work here... and by 'we' I mean us members. There are legions of young professionals, seasoned managers, and immensely thoughtful citizens here. All of us collectively provide a more sane and realistic image of what it means to give a damn a bout something than anywhere else. All of us... have a voice that we actually use... not to simply bark slogans and memes... we are the proof that the traditional media's portrayal of people - and what we are 'all about' ... is a bull# con job.

I suspect some of us may even have seen the 'interestingly cogent' thoughts expressed on ATS magically transported (and often unattributed) over to other the traditional media... but I make no accusations.... just sayin'

Ultimately, it is unwise to undervalue the power of words. It is foolish to see the sharing of information and perspectives as 'having little value' or 'of little consequence.' Nothing could be further from the truth.

originally posted by: akaal
My mind keeps coming back to the same question. Where is the breaking point? After the middle class collapses, who are the Banks and the "1%" going to draw their riches from? Will the Banks and the "1%" start feeding off each other until somebody has it all? Will the ecomomy just naturally self adjust until the middle class makes a comeback? Has this gone over my head and I'm not making any sense? LOL.

The sense that your making is hard to approach because it is a question of such importance we fear to confront it.

Disparity is another word for injustice.

We have often languished sadly before accepting that although our sense of right and wrong insists the 'breaking point' surely means the time to rebel against the status quo... but every message we are force fed tells us that the cost for bucking that status quo is too high a price.

We are defined by the judgements we make... and if we make even one judgement to slump our shoulders and withdraw in disgust we have to question our resolve. But the truth is it is never a simple matter to simply protest, or reject something we are told by our most trusted figures is 'the way it is, and the way it will always be.'

Those who have achieved success (bless them) don't want that apple cart upset.. and it should not be held against them... However, they are often the first to defend the 'way it is" regardless of the reality they should see... that they were lucky, or maybe helped in a way that others cannot be.

AS I said earlier, the time for change has passed. The breaking point is passed. The reason we stand impotent against the situation is quite frankly because those we empower to be our leaders stand in fear... I propose that they are now complicit in the injustice... try telling that to your multimillionaire candidate.

In America, once the politicians met in a secret session (way back during GW Bush's reign) - and there signed a document foreswearing any discussion of the subject of the meeting - I knew.... the breaking point had passed. They decimated the American economy for the benefit of a privately-owned banking conglomerate - the excuse given - 'too big to fail' ...

But our citizens, out national economic health, our well being, the future of our children... that wasn't too big to fail.

And now they tell us via most media that all is well... the economy is rebounding... now is the time to invest....

So my question to you is... .

What exactly happens when the breaking point is passed? It is certainly not revolution, it is certainly not invoking the might of police forces and paramilitary groups; it is clearly not the reinvention of banking in America... we've been threatened with economic decimation... and they will pull the trigger. How do you negotiate with a gun to your head?

Justice come when everyone has equal power... equal rights... our leaders have been allowing banks, corporate mega entities, and NGO's to usurp our rights...

Our biggest problem is we allow leaders to "tell" us... rather than us telling them. Why? Because the TV says so. because the political clowns and fools who "play" reality on TV tell us they are the authority... they know... and what we think we see of the world is a function of our ignorance (in which they keep us.) They spoon feed us misinformation until we become convinced that it is all "too much" for us simple folk to understand....

Can you recall any war politicians have gotten us into that was actually about what they said it was about? Not one.

And somehow the media never objects... they are always "in support of our troops" and they avoid discussing the necessity of the war in the first place. Last time we made history in this regards was when one of our last (but not flaw-free) journalists on traditional media exercised the prerogative to tell America... "this war is a terrible waste of our soldiers lives." (I'm paraphrasing here.)

That was one of the last breaking points passed... of course, "4 Dead in Ohio" becoming a ballad for a generation.

originally posted by: FaceMyBook
a reply to: akaal

That's the rub.

We just have to hope they have some one world government currency ready to go. I imagine that sort of thing takes a long time to get runnin

Won't you be surprised when an international currency is adopted by various politically aligned nations.... oh wait... the Euro! It's not hard at all... after all it's only a make believe unit of exchange owned and invented b a private bank, who then makes you pay to print the money... and then they charge you interest on it... like you were "borrowing" it from them.

a reply to: akaal
Actually that's an easy question to answer. The answer is never. Its a self feeding system, you in fact dont even have one system but a layer of them. But for the most part you have two systems one on top of the other and one feeding off the other. So ya! Its not going to fall baring some "real thing" and by real I mean none of the things you have been conditioned to keep track off.

But really this question was answered some pages back by that dawnstar member. Basically the whole thing was designed to go on and take a lot more punishment then this. You have two systems, one which is for the most part play pretend, a giant gambling table were the rules and dice are fixed and you have the other real one, were things and products are shifted and consumed in our consumer society.

The rub is you have been conditioned to believe that one is reliant and created by the other, ie the the the whole money myth, and one percent, were in reality its the other way around, that world is reliant on the other one as its not real its just pieces of paper and 0 and 1 on a computer. And they have somehow convinced you all that they should be the ones to make up the rules and dictate who does what and who makes what and what its worth is...And well you can guess from there which rules and regulations they made to favor whom. So ya its all a scam for the most part that is held up and must be propped up least it all fall down like a deck of cards. And its all held up by that most trustworthy of human emotions and felling, that thing you know you can always trust all humans to have in abundance the number one thing which is most dominant in them... ie Greed and Human nature, its the basis of capitalism and trully every other ism out there as well no matter what there logos and creeds are.

You see in reality none of it is backed up by fiat currency, or even gold, or the FED or any government body, or even 0 and 1's. All those things are backed up by something stronger then all that put together, and because of that its why its still around today. Our world currency and system is backed up by human nature, its the backbone of the whole system and everything else, its the one thing you can trust in to not likely change anytime this century or 100 centuries from now. Everything else is just veneer and the games different groups of people chose to play.

But ya! Here is the link to the thread some pages back from that dawnstar person. It should explain more on just why this whole game will never fall and were it is likely to be heading. Though there will be plenty of people falling through the cracks of it, and oh boy does it have plenty of those.

actually we have two economies running, the one we are living in where we go to work to collect a paycheck every week that we spend paying our bills investing in our iras or whatever and buying our necessities,or run our businesses and well write those checks to pay our employees and then there is the other that leaches off of our economy in so many different ways it's practically insane. in that economy the money isn't actually stagnant it's flowing, being invested in various paper products- stocks, bonds, derivatives, ect, none that have really that much value in and of itself just like our cash don't. but well those who hold much have great power to sway the accepted value of these pieces of paper higher or lower at their whim. and well since it's the major stockholder that sit on the boards that decide the policies that the corporations take, well they have the power to drive down the wages while increasing the prices charged all for profit and increased stock values of course! that is where the economic activity has been taking place.

a reply to: Maxmars
An interesting take on it. But really the only thing one can say is....We shall see.

a reply to: Maxmars

Great response. I'd flag ya if I could.

I really don't have answers to your questions, because I feel just as you have said sometimes, that I have a gun to my head and I must comply with the way things are.

Sounds like what we really need to do is to get our collective heads out of our collective asses, buck up, and think for ourselves. Even with that, any change is going to take a long time.

In the end ,it's our own fault. Maybe? I have no problem with someone trying to get ahead, but we over consume I think. We all think we need the latest and greatest, the biggest and the best. We have been snared into that trap. When really we should just be content with what is nessesary.

We should be getting our food from farms, not Mc D's, keep our homes humble and functional... etc. Nothing wrong with having a few "extras", but keep it simple. Maybe I'm just too ideological.

Can you recall any war politicians have gotten us into that was actually about what they said it was about? Not one.

Maybe WWII?

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

So us "average Joes should only focus on what we can do to improve our consumer society, because we have no control over the other layer? (The Bankers game I guess you could call it.?)

a reply to: akaal
in so many ways we give those playing that game more power and resources in their game. We have savings accounts, ira's, we shop and buy with our credit cards, pay our taxes, ect. what they are basically doing is pooling our money together and gambling with it. So well, maybe if we try to take as much of our money as we can out of those pools we can hurt them some.
But the banker's game (which includes the big players in the commodities market and stock market) has been funneling money out of our consumer market in many ways and well it's not gonna stop unless we make it stop or it collaspes under it's own fraudulent pieces of paper. And if it collaspes we are gonna be hurting way more than we are.

a reply to: akaal
No its all just the carrot dangled in front of the horse. You all are pulling the whole cart. Its just that your easily distracted and lets face it to complacent to do anything about it. Humanity as a whole is conditioned to follow along, the whole angle of society for centuries was to breed out anybody that does not fit in it and thinks differently, the model is a highly complex and complicated society of button pushers. And the bred and circuses are just there to keep everybody placid.

In all there are no real issues which people have not created. Even if you tear it all down and start all over, after an initial period it will head back to were it is now, after all its not who is on top, because for the most part everybody is in those respects the same. And as they say, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is all that is, and no matter who comes out on top, eventually that will be the plight, again.

So what I am saying is that. You average Joes this whole thing was created and being held up and perpetrated by you all, the whole 1% thing, thats just the people who figured out how to dangle the carrots in front of you so they can get you to head in a direction that is beneficial to them. Its what politics and everything else is about. So yes, even if you switch people around put the average joe on the throne to sort of say, well nothing will change because thats how the others got there now, even politics in its inception was supposed to be a bulwark against this kind of thing.

And look what happened to that? Human nature set in and presto spaghetti, back to square one which the whole thing was supposed to help protect against. I mean it is the only thing people are capable of producing, all of history is literally littered with such things. Not only has it not worked this century, but it has never worked any century ever in the whole of history....So that leaves you all with only one option. Like a fire it must be contained and something must be designed to keep in check the whole thing, and that must be repeated a new every few generations...Everything else is just play pretend on whatever current idiotic and insanity or trend is in play.

But in all your overacting. You can say were still in the golden age of this whole thing, it has yet begun to turn the page and become despondent. It will likely take a few more generations for that as well. So ya you could say that the problems have yet to really set in.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I know I'm just taking advantage of everyone on this thread to gain a little education. So if my questions seem a bit ignorant please excuse me, and thanks for your respectful input.

So what your saying is that this crayziness runs on an infinite cycle because no one has figured how to pause the cycle?