Republican Congress Strips Women and Gays of Rights Under Guise of ‘Religious Freedom’

a reply to: beezzer

I hope you don't actually think that's what I was implying.

Because it's not.

I just can't get my head wrapped around why you all hate each other so much.

a reply to: CranialSponge

I just can't get my head wrapped around why you all hate each other so much.

We don't.

It is the fundamental Christians who seem to hate everyone else.

a reply to: CranialSponge

I think the point of doing it though is so that we can come to some kind of resolution. It's not like we're doing it to keep the division going or anything. It's just that it's a process to iron out the wrinkles and all. It's difficult because at it's core we're talking about very core ideological things here and nobody ever wants to give way to core values. So it's a trick trying to find some common ground and come to some kind of agreement or whatever that everyone is comfortable with.

Besides, we're American and that means we fight with everything. Not like you Canadians Hippies who think being nice is what's it's all "aboot".

(That last part isn't supposed to be taken seriously BTW.)

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: beezzer

I hope you don't actually think that's what I was implying.

Because it's not.

I just can't get my head wrapped around why you all hate each other so much.

Because when we debate, some get forced into defending positions pushed by extremist agendas, thereby forcing us to appear to take extremist views simply to counter.

Like people stating that Christians hate everyone. in order to counter that, I'd get painted as a "Christian extremist" simply by arguing the point.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
The United States of America...

Pfft, not even close.


Thread after thread after thread on ATS of constant, neverending division going with you people.

It's a sad thing to watch from the outside looking in.

I mean that sincerely.

Christianity in a secular government, kicking and screaming as it loses power/control it never should have had.

I've been watching it progress since the late 60s.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Yet I am considered a fundamental Christian.. but I don't hate anyone.. none of this in truth, from most of our standpoints, has anything to do with hate.

When I didn't understand a couple years ago why a gay couple would want to get married, it was Beezer as one of the first people to speak to me about why a gay couple should want to, and be allowed to, get married..

it is because of him, 2the10th, and my, now, husband who sat with me and talked it out... as a result, I support gay marriage.. It confused me greatly, and I needed to understand it.. they all helped me do that..

at the same time.. Beezer feels that equally, a person who feels they cannot do something should not loose their right to say no if they feel they cannot because of what they believe.. like it or not, the main religions teach against homosexuality... so you are going to have some measure of conflict between the more religious, and the secular, in this regard.

There are a great many Christians who would NOT refuse to bake a wedding cake for a same sex marriage, there are many Christians who would never refuse a service of any kind for a same sex couple... and I certainly would not want someone discriminated against...

but at the same time, forcing people to go against what they believe is wrong.. you cannot legislate morality on any count, no matter what side you are trying to legislate what morality they should have.. its been tried the world over, it doesn't work well.. and you end up in bad bad bad situations..

I don't want to see anyone trying to legislate morality in this country.. pass the laws that are right for everyone, the ones that are supported in the constitution, and let nature take its course. All things take time... civil rights didn't happen over night.. even after the laws got passed.. it took time for people to get used to them, acclimate to a new way of thinking..(or did you think rental applications had nothing to do with weeding out black people from some of those all white apartments?... )

we need to allow that time now.. not continually force legislation which changes the constitution..that part is actually just fine.. its us who are occasionally broken.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Beautifully put and thank you, ma'am.

JC people,

The OP has nothing to do with cake baking / decorating. It has to do with legislation being brought forward, that would grant the employer, under the law, the ability to fire someone i.e. that uses birth control, because it's against the employer's belief even tho it has no affect on their business or personal life. It's about an employer, employee relationship that is discriminatory. Not a business owner/ costumer relationship.


Start another thread if your so focused on cakes and pizza....it has nothing to do with this topic. BTW if you open a general public business.....you must serve all. Otherwise, as mentioned, open up a members only service.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I don't want to see anyone trying to legislate morality in this country.. pass the laws that are right for everyone, the ones that are supported in the constitution, and let nature take its course.

BINGO!

There are a great many Christians who would NOT refuse to bake a wedding cake for a same sex marriage, there are many Christians who would never refuse a service of any kind for a same sex couple... and I certainly would not want someone discriminated against

Right but the minority is the one who is powerful and most vocal. Read up on Moral Majority and others.

a reply to: beezzer

No.. thank you sir..

originally posted by: OpinionatedB

When I didn't understand a couple years ago why a gay couple would want to get married, it was Beezer as one of the first people to speak to me about why a gay couple should want to, and be allowed to, get married..

it is because of him, 2the10th, and my, now, husband who sat with me and talked it out... as a result, I support gay marriage.. It confused me greatly, and I needed to understand it.. they all helped me do that..

Beezer.....You old softy!!

Just kidding man.

I agree that was very well put OpinionatedB.

Out of curiosity though, what didn't make sense about Gays wanting to marry exactly??? Why wouldn't they want to just like anyone else??

You guys are arguing religion this isn't about religion the DC law required businesses to pay for abortions of their employees. This is why the GOP is opposing this. You can't force someone to pay for your abortion or birth control. This is a private decision the individual must make and not expect his or her employer to pay for it. The law was so vague some argue it would apply to gender changes as well.

How is expecting every business to treat every customer equally legislating morality?

You got it backwards.

A Christian business expects to force morality on customers who don't want it and don't care.

originally posted by: dragonridr
You guys are arguing religion this isn't about religion the DC law required businesses to pay for abortions of their employees. This is why the GOP is opposing this. You can't force someone to pay for your abortion or birth control. This is a private decision the individual must make and not expect his or her employer to pay for it. The law was so vague some argue it would apply to gender changes as well.

I don't see Viagra mentioned anywhere in there.

originally posted by: dragonridr
You can't force someone to pay for your abortion or birth control. This is a private decision the individual must make and not expect his or her employer to pay for it.

Why can you force them to pay for any other medication then??? Because it's called "paying for their healthcare" and if that is part of healthcare then it's part of healthcare. If it's such a private decision for the individual then why the hell is her employer getting in the middle of it. It's not the employers business what someone does or doesn't get from their doctor in the first place.

BTW, that same company who was complaining about paying for those Birth Control Pills was also invested in producing them and didn't make a fuss about that. Apparently making money off Birth Control is ok but not spending money on it. Go figure.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: dragonridr
You can't force someone to pay for your abortion or birth control. This is a private decision the individual must make and not expect his or her employer to pay for it.

Why can you force them to pay for any other medication then??? Because it's called "paying for their healthcare" and if that is part of healthcare then it's part of healthcare. If it's such a private decision for the individual then why the hell is her employer getting in the middle of it. It's not the employers business what someone does or doesn't get from their doctor in the first place.

BTW, that same company who was complaining about paying for those Birth Control Pills was also invested in producing them and didn't make a fuss about that. Apparently making money off Birth Control is ok but not spending money on it. Go figure.

Well do you expect your employer to pay for you buying a house or when you get married perhaps they should pay for the wedding. Trust me I'm far from the Republicans on most issues but this they are right. Someone can't expect their employer to pay for reproductive issues. This is a personal matter and should be handled privately.God forbid personal responsibility last thing I want is the government involved in my sex life no thank you.

a reply to: dragonridr

Yeah, because those example make perfect sense.

Dude, if birth control is part of healthcare and you pay for healthcare that's how it works. If it wasn't part of healthcare and they were being forced to have to include it or whatever that's one thing but birth control is part of healthcare along with many other things, so what??

I'm sure there are a million different things people have objections to paying for but if it's included in the package that's how it goes.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: dragonridr

Yeah, because those example make perfect sense.

Dude, if birth control is part of healthcare and you pay for healthcare that's how it works. If it wasn't part of healthcare and they were being forced to have to include it or whatever that's one thing but birth control is part of healthcare along with many other things, so what??

I'm sure there are a million different things people have objections to paying for but if it's included in the package that's how it goes.

Birth control is a personal choice if for example you choose to wait until your married no need for birth control. Of you choose to have sex well stop off at the store before hand. If your so cheap thats to expensive government hands out free condoms. Why should employers pay anything so someone can have sex really come on now. Maybe employers should pay for my drinks at the club and the room for the night since I guess sex is now a healthcare issue.

originally posted by: dragonridr
Birth control is a personal choice if for example you choose to wait until your married no need for birth control. Of you choose to have sex well stop off at the store before hand. If your so cheap thats to expensive government hands out free condoms. Why should employers pay anything so someone can have sex really come on now. Maybe employers should pay for my drinks at the club and the room for the night since I guess sex is now a healthcare issue.

First of all, people still use birth control when married. Second, getting some condoms may not be a bad idea.

Did you know that Erectile Dysfunction Drugs like Viagra and Cialis are covered too???
How about Vacuum erection devices are covered by medicare as well???
Penile implants???
Vasectomies???
Circumcision???
All typically covered by healthcare as well. So where is all the fuss when it comes to paying for some old man's boner pills or devices??? At least Birth control is used for medical reasons for some women too. What medical need is there for grandpa to get hard again???

Maybe if they would stop covering Men's dicks then women wouldn't need so much Birth Control???

Also, what's up with your examples you keep using??? Since when are Houses, Drinks, or Weddings considered Healthcare exactly?? When you use examples like that, which obviously don't make any sense it's hard to even take you seriously. It's almost like you really don't have a logical argument to back up your position so you have to use deceptive tactics like that instead.

Hmmmm.............Bad Form.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Is having murder be against the law legislating morality? After all, one of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill. Or, maybe morality has nothing to do with the law? Telling someone they can't discriminate is not legislating morality any more than telling someone they can't murder another is legislating morality. We are simply making sure that everyone gets the rights they deserve. Equal treatment is considered a civil right in this country.

A person has the right to practice their religion until it infringes on another's right. A person who with all their heart believes that anyone who doesn't follow their religion should have their head chopped off doesn't have the right to do that, no matter how strong their belief. A business owner open to the public who believes with all their heart that blacks or women or gays are cursed by God and therefore should be treated as less than the rest of the public doesn't have the right to do that, no matter how strong their belief.