You bought it, so you should own it, right? Wrong.

originally posted by: VoidHawk
If they still own it, then they ought to be responsible when it breaks down!
Sounds good, no more repair bills.

I'm sure they will wiggle out of it with some legal clause. I've been noticing a trend in this sort of corporate nonsense over the past few years. It is about damned time somebody puts a stop to it before they start claiming they own and lease YOU.

originally posted by: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

originally posted by: VoidHawk
If they still own it, then they ought to be responsible when it breaks down!
Sounds good, no more repair bills.

I'm sure they will wiggle out of it with some legal clause. I've been noticing a trend in this sort of corporate nonsense over the past few years. It is about damned time somebody puts a stop to it before they start claiming they own and lease YOU.

Yeah, its about damned time somebody put a stop to GIVING THEM MONEY.

Oh wait.

originally posted by: InverseLookingGlass
a reply to: wasaka

The behavior and actions of corporations are neither moral or immoral. They are amoral, like a machine. They use human operatives but people are not technically at fault, not morally responsible and disconnected from the behavior of the machine.

The profit machines will feed on people and resources without regard for long term outcomes. They will feed until they are stopped or they run out of food. One or the other.

You are describing the A.I. which is completely profit driven.

This Artificial Intelligence rules the corporate/Capitalist system
and it drives our foreign policy. It uses human operatives but
elected officials are not technically at fault, not morally responsible
and disconnected from the behavior of the machine. The system
will not stopped, nor will it run out of food.

a reply to: InverseLookingGlass

The behavior and actions of corporations are neither moral or immoral.

But they can have a religion!

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

originally posted by: VoidHawk
If they still own it, then they ought to be responsible when it breaks down!
Sounds good, no more repair bills.

I'm sure they will wiggle out of it with some legal clause. I've been noticing a trend in this sort of corporate nonsense over the past few years. It is about damned time somebody puts a stop to it before they start claiming they own and lease YOU.

Yeah, its about damned time somebody put a stop to GIVING THEM MONEY.

Oh wait.

Oooops. Forgot about their legislative lackeys, did you?

The only reason this is happening because lawmakers are looking the other way. While I am certain they are receiving kickbacks.

This is just like property tax. Think you own your land/house? Nope you have to pay a tax to the city, county, state, or the feds because technically it sits in their boundaries so THEY own it. Even though you bought it from them.

What a scam. I'm never buying a new GM product or if I become a Farmer or Rancher, John Deere.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
This whole thing started when Jim bob and his cousin fooled around with the tractors computer and ripped up the transmission. They expected john Deere to fix the tractor because it was under warranty. Same thing with people over clocking their computer cpu.

Then it's a simple matter of saying the warranty only covers the original parts and untampered with machinery. Every computer you buy as a package pretty much has that deal in the warranty. If you upgrade it, the warranty more or less goes poof!

Of course, then you want to have the car repaired under warranty, you have to always have it serviced via your licensed dealership mechanic ... but well ... That's the price you pay for buying new and under warranty.

A few years ago I was researching what is or is not "an original title"
and I concluded that unless you build the vehicle yourself from
the ground-up, then you do not (and will not) have "original title."

This is important if you want to drive your vehicle without
submitting to the laws that govern motor vehicles. Not an
easy thing to do. Technically, you may own the car, but
without "original title" you can not declassify it as a
motor vehicle, thus the laws regarding motor vehicles
apply to you whether you like it or not.

If you have ever clicked the "I agree" button at the bottom of a EULA (End User License Agreement, just in you are acronym impaired) then you have already conceded the point. Software is licensed, not sold. Software is increasingly used in mechanical devices to control their operation, and that, also, is licensed, not sold. It's not such a difficult leap. The issue only shows up if you desire to change the controlling software to, for example, increase the horsepower of an engine beyond "factory specs."

Then we get into liability issues. If you change the controlling software and get into an accident, maybe even kill someone, and it can be shown that this is a result of your tampering with the software, can GM be held liable? Yes or No?

I'm not condoning the issue--at all--but I suggest it is a bit more complex than simply whining about corporate power and ownership.

This is just like a lot of PC software . You get a 99 year lease on the software when you buy it. In a clause in the agreement it states the company has the right to reclaim the copy of the software you "rented" any time. This especially applies to software from MS (Windows , Office) and has from nearly day 1.

originally posted by: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

originally posted by: VoidHawk
If they still own it, then they ought to be responsible when it breaks down!
Sounds good, no more repair bills.

I'm sure they will wiggle out of it with some legal clause. I've been noticing a trend in this sort of corporate nonsense over the past few years. It is about damned time somebody puts a stop to it before they start claiming they own and lease YOU.

Yeah, its about damned time somebody put a stop to GIVING THEM MONEY.

Oh wait.

Oooops. Forgot about their legislative lackeys, did you?

The only reason this is happening because lawmakers are looking the other way. While I am certain they are receiving kickbacks.

Yeah, there is more politicians and lackeys than general populous.

Oh wait.

Now I wonder... if GM owns the vehicle and I only have a license to use it granted by GM, wouldn't GM be responsible to the DMV for title and registration since GM has only given me license to use it?

originally posted by: paradoxious

Now I wonder... if GM owns the vehicle and I only have a license to use, wouldn't GM be responsible to the DMV for title and registration since GM has given me license to use it?

Same way the ehm "your" government has given you the right to use the roads, hence your license.

So you're not allowed to navigate yourself around your country in a mechanised vehicle (or plane for that matter), without a permit.

Can you show me the line in the constitution that explains that?

This sucks because GM is my favorite car manufacturer.

I miss the days of distributor caps, throttle cables, and carburetors. I do love my 2012 Sonic, though.

Guess that thought I had about building my own tractor might turn out to be a reality, afterall.

At least then I'd know it would work. No software means no software bugs!

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: paradoxious

Now I wonder... if GM owns the vehicle and I only have a license to use, wouldn't GM be responsible to the DMV for title and registration since GM has given me license to use it?

Same way the ehm "your" government has given you the right to use the roads, hence your license.

So you're not allowed to navigate yourself around your country in a mechanised vehicle (or plane for that matter), without a permit.

Can you show me the line in the constitution that explains that?

Source: By Jack McLamb (from Aid & Abet Newsletter):

The "RIGHT" of the Citizen to travel upon the public roadways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a "COMMON RIGHT" which he has under the "RIGHT" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. See: Thompson v. Smith, supra.

It could not be stated more conclusively that Citizens of the States have a "RIGHT" to travel, without approval or restriction, (license), and that this "RIGHT" is protected under the U.S. Constitution. After all, who do the roadways belong to anyway? The People-At-Large. The following are additional court decisions that expound the same facts:

educate-yourself.org...

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: wasaka

Didn't that pretty much start with Microsoft, etc. and their computer programming both OS and add-ons?

Bingo my friend.
Regards, Iwinder

originally posted by: VoidHawk
If they still own it, then they ought to be responsible when it breaks down!
Sounds good, no more repair bills.

No arguments from me on that one Void!
I enjoy they way you think and process things:-)
Regards, Iwinder

originally posted by: wasaka

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: paradoxious

Now I wonder... if GM owns the vehicle and I only have a license to use, wouldn't GM be responsible to the DMV for title and registration since GM has given me license to use it?

Same way the ehm "your" government has given you the right to use the roads, hence your license.

So you're not allowed to navigate yourself around your country in a mechanised vehicle (or plane for that matter), without a permit.

Can you show me the line in the constitution that explains that?

Source: By Jack McLamb (from Aid & Abet Newsletter):

The "RIGHT" of the Citizen to travel upon the public roadways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a "COMMON RIGHT" which he has under the "RIGHT" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. See: Thompson v. Smith, supra.

It could not be stated more conclusively that Citizens of the States have a "RIGHT" to travel, without approval or restriction, (license), and that this "RIGHT" is protected under the U.S. Constitution. After all, who do the roadways belong to anyway? The People-At-Large. The following are additional court decisions that expound the same facts:

educate-yourself.org...

So why do we have Licenses and tests and checks?

a reply to: Irishhaf

This is why I want to buy an antiquated rust bucket, fix it up myself, and fit after market power steering and a couple of other bits and bobs myself, rather than getting hold of some glorified calculator on wheels.

Look at what you get with modern cars:

Keys which run out of battery power randomly, and can cause your car to lock itself down from the engine to the doors, in a most annoying fashion.

Computer assisted brakes, which when they fail can have catastrophic consequences for the lives and well being of drivers, passengers, and indeed other road users and pedestrians.

Plastic bumpers and trim. Awful, just awful. Either chrome, or go home.

Engine management computers, which not only give the manufacturer these idiotic ideas of perpetual ownership over the vehicle, but mean that a person cannot expect to be able to fix their own automobile.

Engine covers with fixings which have heads that only registered dealerships and mechanics can get the driver bits for.

Committee designed, homogenous econoboxes with no soul, flair, or individuality.

With old cars you get:

Keys. Just keys. Good old fashioned keys. You can change the barrels for more secure ones if you want, and add after market security to them for peace of mind, but you will never get locked out of one, because the computer inside the car thinks it is wise to lock the door on you (happens to people all the damned time). Reason? No computer!

Brakes which are mechanically activated by foot pressure, not by some assemblage of computer chips with delusions of their own importance.

Chromium plated, METAL bumpers, which do not crack, chip, or split because they have had too much sun.

An engine, which you can modify, tune, and tinker with to your hearts content, without any problem or limitation beyond the size of the engine bay and the type of engine you have to work with.

A bonnet (or hood for our American cousins), which is the only impediment between the user of the vehicle and the thumping guts of the machine. No silly covers, no stupid rare driver heads required, just a lever inside the vehicle, or a catch under the bonnet itself.

I know which I prefer the idea of.

a reply to: wasaka

I wonder how long it will take for them to further their argument to include control and/or ownership of the land the tractor is parked on, ie; The Farm.

You know, much the same way that Monsanto argues for control over any areas that their GMO crops happen to appear on. Even when it's accidental propagation on non-GMO farms.

Patent and/or copyright laws have been morphed into nothing more than legal tools put in place to protect the greedy.