Can anyone name a religion that DOESNT believe in reincarnation?

a reply to: Seede

In both events the human body is returned to its source which is this earth. The human body does not ascend into the celestial abode according to the Apostle John and his Revelation from the Christ Jesus.

So this must be one of those denominational differences given what you are saying and what warminindy says. Your view supports the freedom of the spirit to move beyond the flesh body.

Your interpretation certainly makes a lot more sense to me in terms of a non-physical resurrection - but is not really heard very much. Most people I hear, talk about a physical resurrection.

How is such a spiritual resurrection not considered esoteric? Isn't that resurrection also an ascension at least in spirit?

Thank you for the input.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes, but who assigned the parts of the body to those things? That is called metaphysics.

Metaphysics isn't the same as superstition. Allegory isn't the same as superstition. And, many atheists are into metaphysics and Kabbalah, belief in a supernatural being isn't a prerequisite.

I had an old car I used to call "Feet", because it broke down a lot, and I would say, "Feet don't fail me now" when it started chugging. Naming my car "Feet" was a kind of esoteric allegory for my relationship with my car, and as an extension to my own feet.

Such is the tree of life.

That's actually pretty funny. My sister does the same thing. She called her first car Dierks after her favorite singer Dierks Bentley.

So the car, even though it wasn't a Bentley, she perceived it to be because it was her car.

But yes, the superstition of the Hamza Hand came from the esoteric teaching of the Evil Eye, that's why some Hamza Hands have eyes.

a reply to: bb23108

Your interpretation certainly makes a lot more sense to me in terms of a non-physical resurrection - but is not really heard very much. Most people I hear, talk about a physical resurrection. How is such a spiritual resurrection not considered esoteric? Isn't that resurrection also an ascension at least in spirit?

Yes, it is not heard of very much. There may be several reasons for that which I believe is due to the confusion between Rabbinic doctrine and Christian doctrine. When i say Christian doctrine I mean the original Jewish Christians of the first century and not the Roman philosophy of the Roman Catholic Organization. Judaic after life belief evolved from a collective societal existence of spirits in Sheol into seven compartments of rewards and punishments in Sheol. This is that belief as Jesus came upon the scene. The good were now separated from the bad whereas before it was a national collective experience.

Jesus also taught this very same after life philosophy. All spirits of souls who had died are naked spirits with consciousness. By naked means bodiless. The mind of the dead soul did not perish with the flesh but was a portion of the spirit. The soul or body were the sensors of the spirit and it was the spirit that controlled the body. This is the reason the spirit was judged and not the soul. Jesus taught that a human would face only one death of the flesh and a possibility of a second death of the spirit.

Now this differs from some of the Judaic philosophy. Not all Jews subscribed to the same philosophy and in fact some denied an afterlife of any sort while most denied the doctrine of Jesus. So Jesus was a minority philosophy and considered a troublesome sect or cult.

But the mainstream Jews clung to the orthodox philosophy of the national religion. In this religion it was taught that all Jews would face a resurrection of the dead body of flesh, bone and blood. There were no two resurrections but only one resurrection at the end of our present age. All spirits of those who had ever lived and died were recalled from Sheol and united with their exact recovered earthly body. These people along with the living people were judged and either punished or rewarded. The earth would be renewed with justified people.

This end of their age was not necessarily the end of the world but simply the beginning of world domination of the Jews. The Jerusalem kingdom with the seed of the linage of David would be re established. The entire world would be at the feet of Jerusalem with a descendant of David as the king. This man would rule a long life and then die and his descendant would take the throne. The world would learn peace and untold prosperity in this golden age.

This would continue till the end of the world when all would die and enter into the bundle of life as a disembodied spirit. In this philosophy there was no celestial New Jerusalem or celestial body to cloth the naked spirit. There is no tree or water of life in their afterlife. They now exist in degrees of total bliss depending upon their personal rewards.

So these are the basic beliefs between the two philosophies which are taught in the New Testament. The entire challenge is to separate the two philosophies which are commingled among the letters of the Apostles. The entire first century NT is a transition from the Judaic philosophy to the new Jesus philosophy and for this reason most people are not taught that difference. That is the main reason for disunity in Christian philosophy.

Along with this thought comes the fact that most all of so called Christianity is not the true first century Christianity. Most all mainstream denominational Christianity is in truth not Christian at all. They all have some certain things as common such as church etc. but when the liturgies are all examined they are totally foreign to the philosophies of the NT.
Arguments do not solve the issues simply because of the high stakes of power and wealth which seem to feed the disunity.

My opinion is that the most learned of biblical understanding and related subjects on ATS is warminlndy. I am amazed at his or her intelligence and am taught so much by reading his or her posts.

Thanks for the conversation. Bless you

a reply to: Seede

Seede, you give me way too much credit.

But thank you. I think you are extremely and highly knowledgeable also. I love reading your posts.

And WarminIndy is a she.



ETA WarminIndy will always encourages everyone to not just take my word for it, go look it up, as the Bible says "out of the mouths of two or three witnesses, a thing shall be established".

That is why I look at more than just one verse or one chapter, then I go see what others say about that thing.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Jobs are for people who need money.

Back on topic: We have only one life according to you. I sure hope one makes the best of it. After all, imagine spending that one existence slaving away with nothing to show for it...?

originally posted by: Seede
Jesus also taught this very same after life philosophy. All spirits of souls who had died are naked spirits with consciousness. By naked means bodiless. The mind of the dead soul did not perish with the flesh but was a portion of the spirit. The soul or body were the sensors of the spirit and it was the spirit that controlled the body. This is the reason the spirit was judged and not the soul. Jesus taught that a human would face only one death of the flesh and a possibility of a second death of the spirit.

This is very interesting that Jesus taught this separation of spirit from the body, as it does certainly make more sense in terms of what other traditions describe in their understanding of the spirit moving through the esoteric anatomy of the spiritual "body" (not to mention, reincarnation).

Is this description easily found in the Bible or mainly understood from a comprehensive study of the Bible?

I mainly assume this philosophy of Jesus confirmed by this passage:

John 3:7
Don't be astonished that I told you, 'All of you must be born from above.'

originally posted by: Seede
They now exist in degrees of total bliss depending upon their personal rewards.

So it sounds like you also concur that there are various "levels" to the spirit world in which one is rewarded fairly. I am not sure you followed Warminindy and my dialog relative to Heaven and Hell being black and white (or not) in terms of the Judgment, but after several posts, it became clear that she also agreed to this in terms of rewards, though she should chime in if I am mis-representing her.

I mean, with Jesus being the embodiment of Love and Compassion, I just could not figure that it was so black and white with him. Why do you think this is not also very well known? To me, it is a very important matter.

Also, are these degrees of rewards given in the heaven world described specifically in the Scriptures?

These "levels" of the spirit world are also more in sync with other traditions, some of which describe them in much detail.

originally posted by: Seede
My opinion is that the most learned of biblical understanding and related subjects on ATS is warminlndy. I am amazed at his or her intelligence and am taught so much by reading his or her posts.

Yes, I am very appreciative for her in depth responses - very patient too.

Thank you to for sharing your considerable understanding of these matters, as well!

a reply to: bb23108

bb23108

The Bible tells us

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Paul is quoting an Old Testament passage there.

He also says

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Compare that with Jesus saying

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

We could go on day and night about what the original meaning of the original word was in Hebrew and Greek, but the important thing in that is that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for those who love and follow Him. And to us that follow Him, we are to keep what He has commanded us and we show our love in our willingness to do what He has commanded of us.

Now as Paul was teaching that to the church at Corinth, they were Greek and were aware of what the Greek philosophers taught, so Paul was using the same Greek teaching from The Republic in the Allegory of the Cave. Paul was using the philosophy of us being prisoners in our flesh here on earth, and we see the shadows, which the Bible says that all of the Old Testament people were types and shadows of what was to come, but then one day, face to face, when that which is perfect is come and that which is in part shall be done away with.

Paul was using very well known philosophy to describe the escape from the mortal body into the incorruptible body. We shall fold our tents, as Paul said (he was a tent maker).

Then we see John the Revelator give a small view into heaven in which he describes the sea of glass before the throne, the Tree of Life, the throne of God, the mercy seat, the menorah, the description of Jesus all throughout. Then he says he saw the New Jerusalem come down out of heaven adorned like a bride. John is writing to the seven churches in Turkey using Jewish imagery, Paul was in the Greek city of Corinth using the philosophy of Greeks.

But the point is, there are many mansions, and the half has never yet been told. We do see through a glass darkly, but then one day face to face.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Compare that with Jesus saying:

John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Of course, as already mentioned by someone much earlier, this passage can also be a reference to reincarnation, which also handles the aspect of varying rewards. But the word "mansion" better describes the "rooms" in heaven, than on earth, although it still is open for interpretation, it seems to me.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
We could go on day and night about what the original meaning of the original word was in Hebrew and Greek,

Heheh, I think we have already gone on day and night not too long ago!

originally posted by: WarminIndy
but the important thing in that is that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for those who love and follow Him. And to us that follow Him, we are to keep what He has commanded us and we show our love in our willingness to do what He has commanded of us.

Yes.

And as always, thank you!

a reply to: bb23108

This is very interesting that Jesus taught this separation of spirit from the body, as it does certainly make more sense in terms of what other traditions describe in their understanding of the spirit moving through the esoteric anatomy of the spiritual "body" (not to mention, reincarnation). Is this description easily found in the Bible or mainly understood from a comprehensive study of the Bible?

The Apostle Paul gives the most reveling perspective of the spirit than most.

1Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Paul has explained that in likeness there are different creations of flesh and blood creatures and then compares this example with the spirits of flesh. Even though it is not targeted in mainstream biblical literature it is taught in Enoch (which was accepted Christen teachings) that there are spirits of flesh other than people that will also enjoy everlasting life.

The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha - James H. Charlesworth - 2nd Enoch [A] - "For the Lord made man the (Lord) of all his possessions, Over them there will be not judgment for every living soul, but for (that of) man alone. For all the souls of the beasts there is in the great age a single place and a single paddock and a single pasture. etc ----

Paul teaches us that there are celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies. Now common sense also teaches that celestial means out of this world and is assumed out of this universe of terrestrial substance. Paul made it a point to show that the terrestrial is not celestial and by reasoning we can understand that hell, being terrestrial, is not meant as celestial. That is why spiritual naked spirits are not clothed celestial spirits. Even though both are from dead souls, the likeness stops there. In this case these spirits have been judged and sentenced and are serving rewards and punishments.

It is also interesting to me that the spirits do have laws of containment. They are not free to simply roam about as they please but are restricted by laws such as living souls are restricted. Sheol is believed by some as having seven such compartments for degrees of punishments. In fact some believe that the spirits are contained in Sheol, punished for one year of our terrestrial time and then released to join the justified spirits in the celestial realm. So as you can see there are many such beliefs in many forms of religion.

1Corinthians 15:42-45
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

As i read this i realized that Paul was teaching about a resurrected spirit and not a spirit in hell. This is why he points out the spirit being raised in incorruption. The terrestrial body was made in corruption meaning that it will return to the source. The spiritual body is raised or resurrected into a celestial body but not taught as being reunited with the corrupt natural body. Jesus taught that corruption cannot coexist with incorruption.

No mention of the condemned spirit simply because that was not Paul's subject. His message was to the Christians and not the other religious factions.

a reply to: bb23108

I mainly assume this philosophy of Jesus confirmed by this passage: John 3:7 Don't be astonished that I told you, 'All of you must be born from above.'

This particular passage "All of you must be born from above" is highly discussed and not agreed on by many.

John 3:5,6
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7
Don't be astonished that I told you, 'All of you must be born from above.'

I was taught that John's meaning is that there is a difference between kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is the indwelling of His spirit in the terrestrial body and that applies to the living people who accept the gifts of the Holy Spirit (God). This Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost and was that which was prophesied by the prophet Joel (Joel 2:8). Now that God has poured out His Spirit upon all flesh and given His gifts unto men, it remains to men to accept His spirit. Once a person accepts the Holy Spirit God he or she is born from above and His gift of grace is bestowed upon that one who will accept.

Now this indwelling of the kingdom of God differs in meaning than the kingdom of heaven and yet both are one. The kingdom of heaven is a celestial place within the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God entails an infinite existence of God whereas the kingdom of heaven is a piece of celestial real estate within the infinite God. Within the terrestrial realm the kingdom of heaven is not revealed and is only revealed as one enters the celestial realm. This is why you will not read of the indwelling of the kingdom of heaven.

So in effect what John has said is that to accept Christ Jesus is to learn to love. Love is the entirety of celestial existence and is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit God. Therefore love is the ingredient of being born from above. I can’t describe love because it has so many faces. Love for God or mother or father or sister or brother or neighbor are all different but of the same source. There are probably a million different loves but the love for God is the greatest and yet the most complicated. We do not see God and yet love what we cannot see.

1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Solipsism?

originally posted by: Seede
This particular passage "All of you must be born from above" is highly discussed and not agreed on by many.

John 3:5,6
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7
Don't be astonished that I told you, 'All of you must be born from above.'

I was taught that John's meaning is that there is a difference between kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is the indwelling of His spirit in the terrestrial body and that applies to the living people who accept the gifts of the Holy Spirit (God). This Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost and was that which was prophesied by the prophet Joel (Joel 2:8). Now that God has poured out His Spirit upon all flesh and given His gifts unto men, it remains to men to accept His spirit. Once a person accepts the Holy Spirit God he or she is born from above and His gift of grace is bestowed upon that one who will accept.

So those Blessed with the Holy Spirit live in the Kingdom of God while alive, and after they die, they still live in the Kingdom of God, but also in the Kingdom of Heaven because they are now celestial bodies - right?

This again is corroborated by other traditions, and also like the process of dying and reincarnation I posted a while back - that the Kingdom of God (the Universal God-Light or Unity above the worlds) can be glimpsed when one dies, but unless one is already born from Above (which is that same God-Light) while they lived on Earth, they will simply have a celestial body within the Kingdom of Heaven, unless they are shuffled off to a lower realm - e.g. Hell in Christianity, or reincarnation back on Earth according to other tradtions.

Very interesting indeed. Thank you.

originally posted by: Seede
Now this indwelling of the kingdom of God differs in meaning than the kingdom of heaven and yet both are one. The kingdom of heaven is a celestial place within the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God entails an infinite existence of God whereas the kingdom of heaven is a piece of celestial real estate within the infinite God.

Right, the Kingdom of God is unlimited, whereas the Kingdom of Heaven is above the terrestrial world, as it is a celestial place for the spirit, though is not separate from the Kingdom of God.

What happens to these rewarded spirits - do they ever get a chance again for the Kingdom of God? This is where reincarnation says yes in other traditions.

originally posted by: Seede
Within the terrestrial realm the kingdom of heaven is not revealed and is only revealed as one enters the celestial realm. This is why you will not read of the indwelling of the kingdom of heaven.

Right, because the physical body does not enter a celestial world, and few will ever simply release the body enough to enter the celestial world above the body (as far as some other traditions are concerned). However, this is possible in some traditions - i.e., to enter the celestial realm without necessarily merging with the God-Light Above (i.e., the Kingdom of God).

However, Jesus did teach that if one is born from Above, they were reborn of spirit, and so they were in the Kingdom of God here on Earth. I presume they were then always going to be there - i.e., they were not going to be further judged when they physically died. Is that right?

originally posted by: Seede
So in effect what John has said is that to accept Christ Jesus is to learn to love. Love is the entirety of celestial existence and is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit God. Therefore love is the ingredient of being born from above. I can’t describe love because it has so many faces. Love for God or mother or father or sister or brother or neighbor are all different but of the same source. There are probably a million different loves but the love for God is the greatest and yet the most complicated. We do not see God and yet love what we cannot see.

1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Yes, that is beautiful. Jesus' two great commandments certainly bestow the greatest importance to Love - i.e., selflessness. No ego is going to enter the Kingdom of God which is beyond all egoity or selfishness.

a reply to: bb23108

What happens to these rewarded spirits - do they ever get a chance again for the Kingdom of God? This is where reincarnation says yes in other traditions.

There are some who will believe that the unjust who are in hell can have their sins purged and then released in the charge of the heavenly kingdom. In a sense this would seem to me as being the same purpose as reincarnation. That being a unjust naked spirit being purged and entering the heavenly kingdom only to receive a new body for the naked spirit. Unfortunately this is not of the doctrine of Jesus.

As to a reincarnation, it would be totally unfair to give some people a second chance of redemption or improvement and not all people. If the world and all creation is suddenly annihilated then the last of the lot will not have the same chance of reincarnation. There would be nothing to reincarnate into. That would make the Creator an unfair judge would it not?

Jesus taught in Matthew_19:28 "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

This seems to me that the Apostles will be rewarded and become righteous judges of their own people in the kingdom of heaven.

Again it is written - Matthew_16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

And in - Revelation_22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

This leaves little doubt to me that rewards will indeed be given in the kingdom of heaven

The study of angels show the very same in regards of rank and authority in the celestial realm.

originally posted by: Seede
a
As to a reincarnation, it would be totally unfair to give some people a second chance of redemption or improvement and not all people. If the world and all creation is suddenly annihilated then the last of the lot will not have the same chance of reincarnation. There would be nothing to reincarnate into. That would make the Creator an unfair judge would it not?

Some of the other traditions assume there are other physical worlds besides the Earth, so this lack of a place to reincarnate would not be the case.

Also, are you saying that those in the Kingdom of Heaven are given another chance at the Kingdom of God? If so, how does that work?

But no one in Hell has a chance at the Kingdom of Heaven and then the Kingdom of God? If no chance, then they just are tormented eternally?

a reply to: bb23108

Some of the other traditions assume there are other physical worlds besides the Earth, so this lack of a place to reincarnate would not be the case. Also, are you saying that those in the Kingdom of Heaven are given another chance at the Kingdom of God? If so, how does that work? But no one in Hell has a chance at the Kingdom of Heaven and then the Kingdom of God? If no chance, then they just are tormented eternally?

As I express the Christian belief I assumed we were discussing only the Christian belief. Yes there are other religions who believe in multiple universes and many other terrestrial inhabited worlds. There are also some who believe that one repeatedly reincarnates forever and there are also some who believes that one reincarnates only to the point of reaching the desired plateau of bliss. Christian theology does not support the belief that it would be desirable or possible to reincarnate once you have judgment.

If a spirit has been judged and sentenced carried out then all other recourse is impossible. The Judaic and Roman Catholic religions do offer a way out of condemnation but that is not the Christian theological teaching. To be in hell has many conceptions. John teaches that hell is eventually cast into the lake of eternal fire. Luke writes that Jesus teaches us the very same thing. Isaiah teaches us the same lake of fire exists for the unjust but does not specifically name a terrestrial Gehena or Gehinnom.

Certain non Christianized Jews do believe that the kingdom of heaven is an abode where the just spirits are kept in a disembodied state of bliss and have not reached the level or plateau of desired bliss. Those who wish to reincarnate and take the chance of a impoverished life, die once again and gain a higher plateau of bliss can do so. The choice is theirs but along with this is the chance that they can fail to reach that higher plateau or even fail to sustain their present status. But this is only one view of reincarnation. There are many more views and Christianity does not offer any such views.

Hebrews_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Now by this is meant that the terrestrial body will die only once and the spirit will be judged only once. That would not apply to the death of another reincarnated body but it would apply to a judgment of the spirit because reincarnation would entail the same spirit. As you can see there would be a problem in theology in embracing reincarnation as a Christian.

a reply to: Seede

Christian theology does not support the belief that it would be desirable or possible to reincarnate once you have judgment.

This is what modern Christians recite over and over, but it's a lie, and it's wrong. Without the reincarnation of Elijah into the body, born of a woman, of John the Baptist, YOU DON'T HAVE A "CHRIST"!

Jesus Christ guarantees that his believers avoid judgment and enter into eternal life.

You can't have it both ways!

a reply to: windword

This is what modern Christians recite over and over, but it's a lie, and it's wrong. Without the reincarnation of Elijah into the body, born of a woman, of John the Baptist, YOU DON'T HAVE A "CHRIST"! Jesus Christ guarantees that his believers avoid judgment and enter into eternal life. You can't have it both ways!

Could you explain in detail your perspective?

a reply to: Seede

Could you explain in detail your perspective?

Jesus' disciples believed in reincarnation.

John 9:2
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Knowing that, Jesus told them.

Matthew 11:14
"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself IS Elijah who was to come. 15"He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Why did he say that? Because:

Malachi 4:5
"Look, I am sending you THE prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the LORD arrives.

Christians will not be judged:

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Understand?

Christians don't HAVE to believe in reincarnation for themselves, but the concept doesn't clash with or deny Christianity, it compliments it. And, at the very least the special reincarnation of Elijah is intrinsic to the religion. Without it we don't have the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy.

a reply to: windword

Understand? Christians don't HAVE to believe in reincarnation for themselves, but the concept doesn't clash with or deny Christianity, it compliments it. And, at the very least the special reincarnation of Elijah is intrinsic to the religion. Without it we don't have the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy.

Yes, I quite well understand. I understand that you do not read with comprehension.

Matthew 11:10-15
(10) For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (11) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (12) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. (13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. (14) And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. (15) He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

You have assumed that the prophesy of Malachi is referenced to the first advent of Christ Jesus when in fact it is not. You also have not separated thought in scripture correctly. The very first verse of the subject (verse 10) was that - This is John whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (John) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee (meaning The Christ Jesus). Malachi had no idea of the first resurrection and his prophecy was that of the end of the world only. In other words there are two separate occurrences with two men involved. This first occurrence is that of John introducing Jesus. The second occurrence will be that of Elias (Elijah) introducing the "Word Of God' or the second advent of the Christ. The first has happened while the second has not.

John is the forerunner of Christ Jesus in the terrestrial realm.

Matthew 3:1-3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, (2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (3) For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mark_1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

You have confused the first appearance of the Christ which pertains to the terrestrial with the second appearance of the Christ which pertains to the celestial. Meaning that the first appearance is both John and Jesus as terrestrial and the second appearance as Elijah and “The Word” in the celestial.

Again the scriptures show your misunderstanding in the following.

Eth Cepher
Besorah Yahuchanon or Gospel of John 1:19-23
(19) And this is the record of Yahuchanon, when the Yahudiym sent priests and Leviyiym from Yerushalayim to ask him, Who are you? (20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not Hamashiach. (21) And they asked him, what then? Are you Eliyahu? And he said, I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered No. (22) Then said they unto him, Who are you? That we may give an answer to them that sent us. What say you of yourself? (23) He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the Way of Yahuah, as said the prophet Yesha’yahu


KJV bible John 1:19-23
(19) And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
(20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. (21) And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. (22) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? (23) He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

I hope this will help you to understand that your are mistaken in your interpretation of scripture and believing that Christianity embraced reincarnation or transmigration of the soul. It simply is not true.

a reply to: Seede

Yes, I quite well understand. I understand that you do not read with comprehension.

My reading comprehension works quite well, thank you. It's you who must convolute a very simple message.

You have assumed that the prophesy of Malachi is referenced to the first advent of Christ Jesus when in fact it is not.

(13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. (14) And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come.

Reading comprehension indeed! It's as clear as the nose on your face! What other prophecy of Elias, who was for to come, could Jesus be referring to? Nope. This was Jesus claiming the mantle, provided by Malachi, that Jesus was the LORD that John the Baptist, born of woman, who IS Elias, the one prophesied to come and be a voice in the wilderness and pave the way of the LORD.

Malachi had no idea of the first resurrection and his prophecy was that of the end of the world only..........This first occurrence is that of John introducing Jesus. The second occurrence will be that of Elias (Elijah) introducing the "Word Of God' or the second advent of the Christ. The first has happened while the second has not.

The disciples believed that they were the last generation.

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Also, all the prophecies from Matthew 24, "the end of the world" were met with the Jewish Wars, the destruction of Jerusalem, the eruption of Mt Vesuvius and the destruction of Pompeii.

You have confused the first appearance of the Christ which pertains to the terrestrial with the second appearance of the Christ which pertains to the celestial. Meaning that the first appearance is both John and Jesus as terrestrial and the second appearance as Elijah and “The Word” in the celestial.

Here ya go! The second celestial appearence of Elias/Elijah.

Matthew 17
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Again the scriptures show your misunderstanding in the following.

Eth Cepher
Besorah Yahuchanon or Gospel of John 1:19-23
(19) And this is the record of Yahuchanon, when the Yahudiym sent priests and Leviyiym from Yerushalayim to ask him, Who are you? (20) And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not Hamashiach. (21) And they asked him, what then? Are you Eliyahu? And he said, I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered No.

Who are you going to believe? Second hand hearsay accounts of what someone said that John the Baptist said while he stood trial, or Jesus? Jesus said "And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come.

Amnesia is also intrinsic to reincarnation. It's all about a clean slate.

I hope this will help you to understand that your are mistaken in your interpretation of scripture and believing that Christianity embraced reincarnation or transmigration of the soul. It simply is not true.

There is a clear line of textual evidence, from the Gospels and the Old Testament, of a tradition of reincarnation, as well as hundreds of years of confirmation of Christian belief in reincarnation that threads through the writings of church fathers and early history, all the way up the 5th century when the belief was officially banned by Emperor Justinian.

The disciples believed in reincarnation and Jesus not only didn't condemn that belief, he reinforced it. Modern Christians, in order to justify their Catholic influenced doctrine of judgment, heaven and hell, have to do all kinds of back flips and mental gymnastic to deny reincarnation. It's just silly!

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

What is the definition of life?

then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

You're going to need to redefine life to deny that Jesus taught reincarnation.