Evidence Of Pre-Columbian Trade Between Asia And The Americas Found

It looks like another nail in the coffin for the Columbus First theory.

The Rising Whale discoveries include two bronze artifacts, one of which may have originally been used as a buckle or fastener. It has a piece of leather on it that radiocarbondates to around A.D. 600 (more tests will take place in the future). The other bronze artifact may have been used as a whistle.
Bronze-working had not been developed at this time in Alaska, so archaeologists think the artifacts would have been manufactured in China, Korea or Yakutia, and made their way to Alaska through trade routes.

www.livescience.com...

We now have established both transatlantic ( L'Anse aux Meadows) and transoceanic pre-Columbian contact (Rising Whale) with the Americas. It was far from an isolated continent...

a reply to: Heliocentric Mystery Hill, NH aka America's Stonehenge hints that the Vikings were late comers.

stonehengeusa.com...

originally posted by: pteridine
a reply to: Heliocentric Mystery Hill, NH aka America's Stonehenge hints that the Vikings were late comers. stonehengeusa.com...

Just to say, any website that cites Barry Fell in positive terms is an instant fail.

However...the OP is a very interesting one, and I am looking forward to hearing more!
S&F!
Oh, and 'Columbus First' has been toast for a while now.

Columbus First doesn't need any nails. he apparently even had guides with him. do they still actually teach kids that he discovered it when it is well known the NORSE (viking was a job not a race of people) "discovered" it long before? in fact they had colonized it, but not having a major weapon superiority like the so called explorers of the time of those following after Columbus, were attacked by the skrælings (what the Norse called the warlike natives), and ended up leaving. it has also been pretty much proven the Chinese also were in America long before Columbus. the most you can credit Columbus of is starting the scourge of European countries like Spain, Portugal, France and the British colonizing not just the Americas but the Islands in both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

a reply to: Heliocentric
Nice Heliocentric,
That find is not surprising, i wish the article had more specifics on the site itself.

But this find adds legitamacy to the purported Marco Polo map of the Bearing Straights.

One reason the parchments have languished since then is their idiosyncrasy. They tell of people and places absent not just from Polo’s narrative but from known history. And they’re an awkward fit for the era’s known map styles—Portolan sailing charts, the grids and projections of Ptolemy, and the medieval schematics known as mappae mundi.

The parchments bear inscriptions, some cryptic, in Italian, Latin, Arabic and Chinese. Olshin, a professor at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia, who spent more than 13 years researching and writing his new book, is the first scholar to fully decode and translate the maps and to trace Rossi’s ancestry, with some success, back to Polo’s Venice. One of Olshin’s most tantalizing finds are allusions to “Fusang,” an obscure fifth-century Chinese name for a “land across the ocean” that some scholars now contend was America.

Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com...

To all of you who reacted on my "another nail in the coffin for the Columbus First theory" comment.

Yes, this theory is dead, which is why it's in a coffin. The nails in my metaphor represent the data that proves this theory should be buried, so this is another nail amongst others.

Get it?

a reply to: Heliocentric

It's well known in the archaeology and history world that Columbus was not the first, but the date he landed is used as a sort of marking stone for a period in history.

Laz thinks most everybody got to the Americas before Columbus.

BTW, why is Barry Fell a fail?

Sooner or later evidence will be unearthed that is ACCEPTED by archeologists that positively shows that there was trade going on between the Americas and other European and Mediterranean countries.

To say something exists, they need good proof. The fact is that there was something going on with travel between the continents long before Columbus. Just because we haven't found any accepted evidence YET does not mean it didn't happen. The fact that there is a mixture of many types of genetics that formed South American people, genetic changes that go way back over fifteen hundred years, means that Columbus did not discover America. During the dark ages a lot of information disappeared. The Crusaders also destroyed every written thing they could find. People have been erasing history for thousands of years.

But if you look at the genetics of the people who were here and their placement in the areas of the continents you can see that the people from South America did not come over the land bridge from Alaska. That is ridiculous. They probably took ships over from the Mediterranean and Africa. Somehow they got there and there is diversity in their genetics meaning there were different settlers long ago from waves of people from different areas. I think they had ships that went across the ocean, that would be the most logical way. The writings are long gone. The evidence is long gone, they were probably wooden ships.

As soon as there is acceptable evidence, history will change. Till then, keep your minds open and remember, just because there is no evidence yet, doesn't mean it will always be that way. If that statement wasn't true, why would we need archeologists and anthropologists.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

The physical site is barely surviving so the Barry Fell book is a bit of advertising for them. Barry was hot on the Celts and liked to find them everywhere even though the concept that the British isles are populated with Celts has fallen on hard times recently. In spite of Barry, carbon dating to 1800BCE and a complex astronomical observatory make the site interesting. The large flat stone on three other stones, a dolmen-like structure, has a blood groove and drain carved into it.
The Vikings were definitely late comers but one wonders of they managed to enslave any indigenous peoples and sell them off in their slave markets. That would make for some interesting DNA findings as a major source of Viking income was selling slaves in Constantinople.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Sooner or later evidence will be unearthed that is ACCEPTED by archeologists that positively shows that there was trade going on between the Americas and other European and Mediterranean countries.

To say something exists, they need good proof. The fact is that there was something going on with travel between the continents long before Columbus. Just because we haven't found any accepted evidence YET does not mean it didn't happen. The fact that there is a mixture of many types of genetics that formed South American people, genetic changes that go way back over fifteen hundred years, means that Columbus did not discover America. During the dark ages a lot of information disappeared. The Crusaders also destroyed every written thing they could find. People have been erasing history for thousands of years.

But if you look at the genetics of the people who were here and their placement in the areas of the continents you can see that the people from South America did not come over the land bridge from Alaska. That is ridiculous.

Not only is that not ridiculous, the two oldest DNA samples ever found in North America show that they are ancestral to the Native populations in Central and South America.

That's 12,000 and 13,000 year old DNA.

Nice find, OP, but trade across the Bering Strait in 600 AD can't really be all that surprising, can it?

Harte

originally posted by: Heliocentric
To all of you who reacted on my "another nail in the coffin for the Columbus First theory" comment.

Yes, this theory is dead, which is why it's in a coffin. The nails in my metaphor represent the data that proves this theory should be buried, so this is another nail amongst others.

Get it?

Got it a long time ago, that's why I 'reacted', but I should have let you have fun with the metaphor.
Barry Fell? As one of my profs once remarked, "As an epigrapher, he was one heck of a marine biologist". His observations are adequately debunked all over the place. Mystery Hill? The Wiki is a good read there.
I figure there are surely other precolumbian European sites in the New World (beyond Newfoundland and Baffin Island. Red Bay, Labrador appears to be a maybe). I'm just waiting for proof. No proof of Chinese, as stated otherwhere, Irish, Welsh, etc. That's why the Rising Whale site is so exciting. Yes, Harte, it makes perfect sense, but it's nice to see it proven.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
I figure there are surely other precolumbian European sites in the New World (beyond Newfoundland and Baffin Island. Red Bay, Labrador appears to be a maybe). I'm just waiting for proof. No proof of Chinese, as stated otherwhere, Irish, Welsh, etc. That's why the Rising Whale site is so exciting. Yes, Harte, it makes perfect sense, but it's nice to see it proven.

The Jomon-Valdivia (Japan-Ecuador) connection is looking good, since we can base the argument on both similar pottery/cultural styles and genetic studies.

en.wikipedia.org...

I just recently talked to an old colleague working with the group around Eric Boëda, archaeologist and specialist in lithic industry at the University of Paris. He has been working with a French team at Pedra Furada in Brazil for years. He says that to a very high degree of certainty, they can date the site to at least 30 000 BCE. Yves Coppens, who you might know about, thinks the site is a 100 000 years old, but most in the team are guestimating it's around 50 000 to 60 000 years old. Their theory is these very early inhabitants came from Africa. It might be a harder nut to swallow for some though...

The first native American Columbus spoke to when he landed, asked Columbus if he had any beer, in English, English fisherman were known to the north American's before Columbus, the fisherman never spoke of it at home, the fishing was just to good to broadcast it to all and sundry.

originally posted by: Heliocentric

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
I figure there are surely other precolumbian European sites in the New World (beyond Newfoundland and Baffin Island. Red Bay, Labrador appears to be a maybe). I'm just waiting for proof. No proof of Chinese, as stated otherwhere, Irish, Welsh, etc. That's why the Rising Whale site is so exciting. Yes, Harte, it makes perfect sense, but it's nice to see it proven.

The Jomon-Valdivia (Japan-Ecuador) connection is looking good, since we can base the argument on both similar pottery/cultural styles and genetic studies.

en.wikipedia.org...

I just recently talked to an old colleague working with the group around Eric Boëda, archaeologist and specialist in lithic industry at the University of Paris. He has been working with a French team at Pedra Furada in Brazil for years. He says that to a very high degree of certainty, they can date the site to at least 30 000 BCE. Yves Coppens, who you might know about, thinks the site is a 100 000 years old, but most in the team are guestimating it's around 50 000 to 60 000 years old. Their theory is these very early inhabitants came from Africa. It might be a harder nut to swallow for some though...

Leakey in the Arctic, Lee at Sheguiandah...there are some pretty interesting dates being tossed around in certain circles. Look at Monte Verde...and I've heard mutterings of 40KYA on that site. Pedra Furada has been making North American archaeologists nuts for a while now, but if they can support their science...pass the catsup. We live in exciting times! (well...if this kinda stuff excites you)

originally posted by: pikestaff
The first native American Columbus spoke to when he landed, asked Columbus if he had any beer, in English, English fisherman were known to the north American's before Columbus, the fisherman never spoke of it at home, the fishing was just to good to broadcast it to all and sundry.

Hence the question mark about the Basque. The beer story is great, I guess asking for references is futile, though.

originally posted by: Heliocentric
It looks like another nail in the coffin for the Columbus First theory.

The "Columbus First" theory has not been a viable theory for at least fifty years. I remember reading about Leif Erickson in a fifth grade textbook, no less, so the idea that little kids were brainwashed with Columbus by government handlers is also not true. (Not that you did, but the point is there has been no Columbus First theory for some time.) Columbus is still important because THAT was the voyage that opened the eyes of Europe to the reality of the Americas. Before Columbus, they didn't really know it was there. After Columbus, they did.

There have been countless discoveries at least hinting that Asians visited the West Coast, Portuguese reached the East Coast, Romans visited Canada, Egyptians reached South America, etc. This should come as no surprise to anyone. This is a great find, but it ought to be treated not as a breakthrough and earth shattering discovery, but a confirmation of what we have always suspected anyway.

originally posted by: schuyler
There have been countless discoveries at least hinting that Asians visited the West Coast, Portuguese reached the East Coast, Romans visited Canada, Egyptians reached South America, etc.

So...wanna tell me bout these Romans?

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Pedra Furada has been making North American archaeologists nuts for a while now, but if they can support their science...pass the catsup. We live in exciting times! (well...if this kinda stuff excites you)

They can support the science, and they're dead serious. This is the CNRS working on the site, which is the French equivalent of the Smithsonian in terms of expertise and excellence. If it was only Niede Guidon and some local Brazilian department of Archaeology, then perhaps I would allow myself to discard the claims as I have in the past, but when very respected colleagues tells you it's the real deal, well...
They know there's a s..t storm coming, so they're taking their time and slowly building their case. Keep an eye on Pedra Furada, I believe it will be a game changer in how we look at the Americas and the history of humanity.

Exciting times, yes.

Nice find O.P just got back in checked my news feed and Iwas like Wow! so I ventured over an ongoing thread
Scientist explores connection between Shang Dynasty
China and ancient Peruvian cultures
www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Heliocentric
They know there's a s..t storm coming, so they're taking their time and slowly building their case. Keep an eye on Pedra Furada, I believe it will be a game changer in how we look at the Americas and the history of humanity.

Exciting times, yes.

I think the # storm has already mostly come and gone with the death of Clovis first. Any time science has produced findings that revolutionized current theory, good, hard, repeatable data has been required. I think that's what they are probably concentrating on.

Yes, exciting times.

Harte