The Absolute TRAP of Belief Versus Disbelief in God

Most people are programmed to assume there is no other choice but to either believe or disbelieve in God or "God" - whichever truly exists if either - but in reality there IS a third way, and it's the only rational-meaningful one: Make it an issue of DESIRE to learn about and experience as much of the unexplained-undisclosed as possible instead of making unproved assertions based on mere puny BELIEFS on BOTH sides of the same old prescribed, eternally going NOWHERE crapola! Then, if it could ever be proved that any TYPE of Supreme Being exists, those who have refused to be enslaved-constrained within the existing narrow, hollow, completely impotent paradigm will not have been wrong, just intelligent and skeptical in the real and entirely normal and sane (what a concept) way. Any REAL God, if applicable, would not have a problem with that, or so I would gladly wager in the biggest way.

I'm convinced said Supreme Being (if existing) would ALSO not have a problem with outright DISBELIEVERS in Him/Her/It, at least within the issue of just belief itself. That is how any truly evolved-advanced and intelligent enough -- not egomaniacal -- being would look at it.

Quit worshiping or at least enabling rule by secrecy! Refuse to be confined to the "choices" that are and always will be NON-CHOICES in objective reality. Same goes for the always futile liberal-versus-conservative BS. Think in terms of LIBERATION rather than the prescribed-allowed liberalism.

True, I admit this is my belief, technically, but really more like convictions and core values.

Think will stick with being a beer guzzling.. skirt chasing .. cigar smoking .. godless heathen .. much more fun and learn far more without the hangups and hypocrisy ..

originally posted by: Expat888
Think will stick with being a beer guzzling.. skirt chasing .. cigar smoking .. godless heathen .. much more fun and learn far more without the hangups and hypocrisy ..

There's nothing resembling good enough, real evidence, let alone full-fledged proof, that there is a necessary connection between religions/unproved beliefs and morality-ethics. In fact, there has been far too much of the very opposite.

a reply to: Lightworth

That is your opinion. The way you described it you seemed to have view or outlook in beliefs, religion and values at a very narrow kind of point and unconsistent. You speak of humans being programmed to believe in God and "God" (is there a difference made by ""?) Yet you speak of Real God/Supreme Being? Is that another side of the coin?

There is only one GOD (may vary on one's religious/spiritual). And you dont seen to to have just one.

Would you also believe in those who claim to be "God-Like" humans? What are your thoughts on that?

#14

a reply to: IAmPhoenix7

I don't expect you or perhaps most people on this planet to relate to it, but as I already mentioned, it's an issue of desire over unproved beliefs. There's plenty of legitimately unexplained -- or at least undisclosed -- phenomena, manifestations, occurrences etc. that warrant further investigations, discoveries, in the least.

Some of us have recognized when "divine intervention" has touched our lives. Myself, I've had a handful of events that were, in my mind, absolute miracles. I won't go into it here, but it's the equivalent of winning the lottery three times in a row, sure it might be luck, but it's likely that there was a bit more going on. It's difficult to explain, but you sense a very real power and presence. Wherever you are in your beliefs, when these events happen, often they not only change you, but motivate you to seek out answers.

In my case, a solid religious belief in God, apparently wasn't a prerequisite. The result was exploring many "new age" answers all the way to attending Evangelical Christian churches for several years. Some might argue this was exactly what God intended, others disagree.

The bottom line is this, the vast majority believe there is some sort of higher power and afterlife. This has been true from the start. Now whether you believe it's God, angels, aliens, other dimensions etc. is evidence that it's "something". Defining that something has created countless religious beliefs and over time, has twisted itself into a complete mess. It's been my experience that most religions want to put God in a box and limit your exploration through whatever means necessary, but mostly fear and reward.

I've come to accept that it doesn't matter what others believe, as long as it's passive towards others, believe whatever you like, I'm OK with it. I choose to believe we're here for a reason and that whatever road we're on, we'll be nudged back onto our path when necessary. Some will be given insight and some will not. It's either the most important decision you'll ever make affecting at the least your current life...or it isn't.

a reply to: Lightworth

Without firsthand personal experience (which is a valid reason to have one's opinion swayed either way), Agnosticism is the most rational position on the issue, bar none.

When you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, the obvious conclusion is to leave the subject open to exploration.

originally posted by: Lightworth
a reply to: IAmPhoenix7

I don't expect you or perhaps most people on this planet to relate to it, but as I already mentioned, it's an issue of desire over unproved beliefs. There's plenty of legitimately unexplained -- or at least undisclosed -- phenomena, manifestations, occurrences etc. that warrant further investigations, discoveries, in the least.

Hey, speak for yourself. I only became a Muslim because God proved He was real to me. Well, that & because I was interacting with Shaytan (aka "the Devil") since I was a child. I'm actually a stubborn & scientific knucklehead, so it took God getting angry & chastising me before I finally submit to Him. He's proven Himself to me so many times there's literally no other explanation for it for me. And that's before I started asking Him for advice, for knowledge, etc.

Instead of making broad assumptions, why not simply ask people who've converted to a Monotheist religion why they converted? You'll probably be surprised to see how many people have also had personal miracles & revelations. Instead, you're simply projecting your own experiences (or lack of experiences) onto others. This is why they say "To believers, there's more than enough proof. And to disbelievers, there's never enough proof".

a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

No offense, but maybe you're just hanging around the wrong people? Because my religious friends, family, & I are nothing like that Some are Christians, some Muslims, and some I guess would be called agnostic or non-practicing. Either way, we encourage each other, bring food to each other, help each other out, etc. When my friends' churches were fundraising, we'd chip in. And when one of the denominations was fasting, the others would either not eat around that person (so as not to tempt them) or fast with them.

I semi-recently moved away from that area, but I still keep in touch with some of them. I think I'm partially filling in that void by posting online

Sorry, I guess my point is that maybe you should focus more on the people's characters than their professed beliefs. And if you see negativity from them, reject them from your life. You'd be surprised how many well meaning believers there are in the world. But if you only focus on the negative "believers", it will taint your perspective. I think they call it the "poisoning the well" tactic.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I actually do have a substantial enough (at least) history of unexplained experiences, but will not elaborate publicly on them -- or any more -- because I have zero desire to come across as a loon or otherwise mistaken in absence of proof. How is it possible to interpret one's unexplained or even miraculous experiences as being provenly-definitely the product of only the (alleged) Single Creator of the entire universe?

Belief in any supernatural being is ridiculous. The only reason the concept even comes up is because of the long standing myth of such beings and the constant manipulation and propogation of these stories as fact. Couple that with 7 billion uneducated and easily lead opinions, along with a worldwide campaign to divide and ostricize or kill the "nonbelievers" and you get a large section of people who will believe just about anything they read.

To me, atheism is the only choice. Firstly, because we now know these stories to be untrue. Therefor, the concepts of deities in these stories are also untrue. Period.

Agnosticism is the belief that there is not enough info to make a decision one way or the other. But i say there is plenty of evidence that the stories which we get our concepts for god from, are untrue. That is all the proof i need to not believe in something.

For those who claim agnosticism, i ask are you also agnostic about unicorns, fairies, and flying men? Or do you flat out deny their existance? There is the same amount of evidence for these as there are for "gods"


a reply to: Lightworth

a reply to: Lightworth

I can't speak for others, but I ask Him directly. With my early experiences, I'd ask directly for A, B, or C to happen. And He'd either do them or have something hilariously obvious happen to put me in check (like asking for wealth, then a friend suddenly comes around & wants to play Monopoly). Other times, He showed me visions or "hallucinations"; would show me things in dreams which would happen later on; and eventually gave me 2 weeks of Hell & a series of visions that let me know my "Hell" was nothing compared to the real deal.

My craziest things I won't mention here, because i don't want to sound like I'm bragging about my former arrogance (not worried about sounding crazy lol). Though I will say this: I've studied many different religions & sects, including the occult. And there's something some groups refer to as "the sight". Well, He gave me that as a reward for a few weeks, but I had to beg Him to take it away. I couldn't handle seeing people's intentions & what I can only guess was their spirits or "lifeforce". I've got a lame/tame version of it now, so I rarely look people in the eyes unless serious situations are going down. I prefer to be naive & assume the person I'm dealing with has good intentions.

There are too many things for me to list, but I'm more sure that God, His angels, Shaytan, and Hell are real than I am that you are real lol. Not being rude, just saying this entire reality could be a simulation and everyone I encounter could be a simulated "program" for all I know (told you I'm a knucklehead).

Main thing I'd say is just to take your time. I actually think it's better for people to do good deeds on this Earth than to obsess over scriptures anyway. That's why I don't have a problem with atheists or other religions, as long as they're trying to do good (and aren't lying about my beliefs). As long as you're focusing on positivity & reject negativity, I think you're on the right track. And if He decides it's time to force you to acknowledge His presence, He'll do it lol Hopefully it won't be as ummm... "decisive" as it was with me.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

No offense, but maybe you're just hanging around the wrong people? Because my religious friends, family, & I are nothing like that

Some are Christians, some Muslims, and some I guess would be called agnostic or non-practicing. Either way, we encourage each other, bring food to each other, help each other out, etc. When my friends' churches were fundraising, we'd chip in. And when one of the denominations was fasting, the others would either not eat around that person (so as not to tempt them) or fast with them.

No offence to you, but maybe your eyes are wide shut and your only looking at people from the surface!

Are you seriously so blindly ignorant as to believe anyone that donates to causes or participates with food drives is automatically a 'good' person? You have no idea what these people do behind closed doors, or how they treat people when there little christian friends aren't watching. Or if they'd even be prepared to give charity or help people in need if there was no one around to praise them for it.

Do you seriously believe all those pedophile priests weren't acting the part on the surface? How people project themselves in public and who they really are, is often 2 different things.

But..... don't believe me, who am I to destroy a persons incredibly naive perception of humanity.

a reply to: Woodcarver

It's possible or at least conceivable that ALL of the unexplained could be PROVED to be whatever smoke-and-mirrors illusions, deceptions, but there is definitely enough there to warrant further study, discovery, to treat it like calm and rational, real adults. Otherwise belief is just belief, whichever side of the futile prescribed-allowed fence on which one stands.

a reply to: Lightworth
Your position is open to whatever is the truth, so that is good. This topic is one of great importance and interest at ATS, it seems to me.

I also find it best to not just believe in anything in terms of religion and philosophy; but to embrace life fully, openly, to find out what is true. As you indicate, most people settle for what only seems to be true to them and/or accepted by the majority, like their local religion, materialism, or whatever, without fully considering it, living it, participating in it, not abstracting from it, nor allowing one's conditioning to determine their choices.

Pre-conceived notions, beliefs, presumptions, etc., only get in the way of really embracing what is going on and finding out for real if anything greater than what we perceive with the senses is actually the case.

Find out, really find out, before drawing conclusions, about this great matter.

When one approaches life fully this way, the truth is bound to begin to show itself.

Once you find out, then relate fully to what reality has revealed - be it Divine or otherwise.

a reply to: Lightworth

Guten Morgen- The following is attributed to The Great Buddha.

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it"

namaste

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

No offense, but maybe you're just hanging around the wrong people? Because my religious friends, family, & I are nothing like that

Some are Christians, some Muslims, and some I guess would be called agnostic or non-practicing. Either way, we encourage each other, bring food to each other, help each other out, etc. When my friends' churches were fundraising, we'd chip in. And when one of the denominations was fasting, the others would either not eat around that person (so as not to tempt them) or fast with them.

No offence to you, but maybe your eyes are wide shut and your only looking at people from the surface!

Are you seriously so blindly ignorant as to believe anyone that donates to causes or participates with food drives is automatically a 'good' person? You have no idea what these people do behind closed doors, or how they treat people when there little christian friends aren't watching. Or if they'd even be prepared to give charity or help people in need if there was no one around to praise them for it.

Do you seriously believe all those pedophile priests weren't acting the part on the surface? How people project themselves in public and who they really are, is often 2 different things.

But..... don't believe me, who am I to destroy a persons incredibly naive perception of humanity.

LOL Well then...

I wish I was as naive as you assume I am. Things would be a lot easier for me if I were. But if you knew who I was, you wouldn't phrase things as you did. Not so much my face but my "life" & "goal". Not that it matters here, of course. Anyway, enough vague stuff. I'll address your words.

I don't know what you've been through so I can't judge you on that. But I can say that labeling people as broadly as you did is flat out wrong. There are pedophiles everywhere, not just in the clergy. Just as there are rapists, thieves, liars, and murderers everywhere. This is true whether they pretend they are Atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Essenes, Agnostics, Buddhists, Luciferians, follow Shinto, Taoism, or any other belief system. The problem is with the vile nature of humans, not with religion as a whole. And even if all religions disappeared today, those atrocities would not.

Also, I don't judge people based on how you claim I do. I'm not even sure where you got that. I didn't say a thing about believing "anyone that donates to causes or participates with food drives is automatically a 'good' person". And even though "blindly ignorant" has a nice ring to it, unfortunately, it doesn't fit me at all. In fact, I'm only seen as a threat by my real life adversaries simply because I believe in exposing what is hidden from sight. I'm sometimes even seen as a heretic for this. But I only serve God so Mankind's judgments have no meanings to me (not that you care about that).

Oh & no matter what you've gone through in life, that still doesn't give you the right to say such BS about people you've never even met. The people I keep & kept close to me are terrific people. I've literally trusted them with my life & legacy. So for you to assume they're like the negative people you've encountered is ridiculous. If anything, I think you should probably take a look in the mirror.

I don't know you so I can only judge you by what you typed to me. But it seems like you're becoming obsessed or corrupted by the negativity you've suffered. You should be careful with that because it can make you unnecessarily burn bridges or push people away who might've been able to have a good impact in your life. And I'm saying that from experience.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Belief in any supernatural being is ridiculous.
....
To me, atheism is the only choice. Firstly, because we now know these stories to be untrue. Therefor, the concepts of deities in these stories are also untrue. Period.

For those who claim agnosticism, i ask are you also agnostic about unicorns, fairies, and flying men? Or do you flat out deny their existance? There is the same amount of evidence for these as there are for "gods"

LOL! Spoken like a true fundamentalist!

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Lightworth

Yeah well, in my experience it is exactly the opposite.

Not just with religion within itself. It seems to me the more obsessed (on the surface) a person appears to be with religion and/or conservative vs liberal belief structures, the more morally unethical they actually are in reality.

MSM religion really must attract morally unethical people like a magnet to metal. Since it teaches that you can basically spend your life being a cold hearted arse-hole and treat others however you please, just so long as you pray at the end of the day, all will be forgiven........Apparently.

No offense, but maybe you're just hanging around the wrong people? Because my religious friends, family, & I are nothing like that

Some are Christians, some Muslims, and some I guess would be called agnostic or non-practicing. Either way, we encourage each other, bring food to each other, help each other out, etc. When my friends' churches were fundraising, we'd chip in. And when one of the denominations was fasting, the others would either not eat around that person (so as not to tempt them) or fast with them.

No offence to you, but maybe your eyes are wide shut and your only looking at people from the surface!

Are you seriously so blindly ignorant as to believe anyone that donates to causes or participates with food drives is automatically a 'good' person? You have no idea what these people do behind closed doors, or how they treat people when there little christian friends aren't watching. Or if they'd even be prepared to give charity or help people in need if there was no one around to praise them for it.

Do you seriously believe all those pedophile priests weren't acting the part on the surface? How people project themselves in public and who they really are, is often 2 different things.

But..... don't believe me, who am I to destroy a persons incredibly naive perception of humanity.

I don't know what you've been through so I can't judge you on that.

Well........ I wasn't sexually abused as a kid, just to get that out of the way. If it was what you were implying.

I don't know you so I can only judge you by what you typed to me. But it seems like you're becoming obsessed or corrupted by the negativity you've suffered. You should be careful with that because it can make you unnecessarily burn bridges or push people away who might've been able to have a good impact in your life. And I'm saying that from experience.

Maybe I am pushing people away and burning bridges because I have no faith in the sincerity of humanity. Maybe I do have a perception that I've been burnt and left in the cold, for simply refusing to follow the status quo. But so what?

Don't see how that's relevant to my argument.

I also feel that your using trickery to justify your stance. Pretending to be sympathetic, yet in reality just attacking my character to defend your biased perception of organized religion.

Shouldn't be surprised though, its how Christians do, ime.