The West has lost it's military edge.......

a reply to: Zaphod58

From what I understand. Russia is somewhere around 4.5 gen stealth. We are def. Gen 5+. I'm willing to bet we really have gen 6 and maybe some gen 7 assets. I think if we ever really showed our hand Russian pilots would be turning back when they realize what they are up against.

I feel we only as see the tip of the iceberg in regards to the true US air capability.

Plus there was that one thing I saw, which I'm sure if they ever did see that coming at them, big IF, they would crawl up into the fetal position sucking their thumbs, shaking worse than when they get their usual alcohol withdrawal, going "We didn't know you guys had one of those, never mind we surrender."

a reply to: rigel4

I say let them ride the western spear.

a reply to: Zaphod58
We have tested versus their export systems. Great for dealing with Iran, not so great for dealing with Russia or China.
All of the non-export pieces we have gotten have been from pre-USSR stocks.

They have tested, refined, and tested again in every conflict we have employed stealth aircraft against their export equipment.

This is the crux, we have shown a great deal of "ours" in recent conflicts, but we have never gotten the chance to test any of "theirs" in the real world. We just make assumptions based off of the exports and trumpet them as gospel.

a reply to: peck420

Dude we haven't shown Sh!t. They got another thing coming....believe that.

We have shown them the jr varsity team. that's it.

originally posted by: buddah6

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: buddah6
a reply to: spy66

You obviously didn't understand what I said! And Yes we can and will fly to that theater to fight Su and MiGs. You still act like Russia has as many operative Su-27s as we have F-22s.

No you wont. The US wont fly a mission With their F-22 form the US to fight a air Battle in the EU.

Not even the B2 will be of any use in this Battle. It will be brought Down before it can deliver it medium range missiles.
If it does get it short range missiles away the S400 and S500 will take them Down. Or THe panzir or Tor will do the job.

If you are so sure of what the US will do then why are you debating? Maybe, you need to work at the Pentagon with your great understanding of how our military functions. They do hire civilians from time to time but they usually have an extensive military background.

Do you really think it matters if i had worked at Pentagon. Do you know how this Works at all???
Have you ever been in a conversation With a ranked officer ever??? Its not easy to talke sense to these People at all. It is all about the rank in this Field.

Its like if you have a good idea you will be looked upeon as a idiot. If you have a idea that is according to their understanding and view....you get a pat on the sholder. And they say you are a Bright soldier.

There are nothing but big ass kisser in the military......just like in every major Corporation. If you dont have the rank you dont have a Bright mind or a say in anything.....all you get to do is agree.

a reply to: peck420

Just as they do. There's really not a huge difference between most export systems and the home systems. The difference is that the export system is specialized to order by the customer. So where the home system uses one ECCM system, the export system may use one developed by their own company.

The data gathered against an export system is just as valid against a non export system. Especially in a case where they can get access to different radar systems.

As for getting access to our systems, just as they have aspects that they don't use except in full up peer war situations, there are systems on the stealth aircraft that have never been used, because they haven't had to be.

a reply to: BASSPLYR
Yes, yes, super secret stealth ninjas with quantum teleportation and cup holders...I know.

So high tech it has been scaring away even the most technologically advanced aliens for millenium, because they knew how good it would be that long ago.

a reply to: peck420

Dude you know about those!?! OH crap, good job DIA, he knows.

But you forgot about the Beam of Insanity and the Foo Fighter escort that comes standard along with the cup holders.

The aliens, I wouldn't worry about them coming back. They had a bad run in with me one night, turns out their unblinking stare and immobilizer beam is worth bubkis against a man on malt liquor. Turned tail and ran back to their moon base, which we then bombed under the guise of a NASA experiment. My space clone told me so.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
Just as they do. There's really not a huge difference between most export systems and the home systems. The difference is that the export system is specialized to order by the customer. So where the home system uses one ECCM system, the export system may use one developed by their own company.

The data gathered against an export system is just as valid against a non export system. Especially in a case where they can get access to different radar systems.

Your logic is sound, if you are thinking like a person at the top of the technological food chain. Russia and China learned a great during the USSR fall. I wouldn't assume that their export systems will act anything like their internal products. In fact, I would argue that they have been purposefully utilizing their export markets to test US systems since the US won the Cold War. They knew they were behind in the tech realm, and that would be the most logical way to garner information on your technologically superior foe, without tipping the hand on your gains.

As for getting access to our systems, just as they have aspects that they don't use except in full up peer war situations, there are systems on the stealth aircraft that have never been used, because they haven't had to be.

It must have been a different USA that their hackers ran roughshod over. I would assume that they have far more information on our latest, greatest, and under development than we have of their current.

That being said, I doubt we will ever agree in this area, so hopefully...we spend years debating in in the virtual world and never see it used in the real world.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: buddah6

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: buddah6
a reply to: spy66

You obviously didn't understand what I said! And Yes we can and will fly to that theater to fight Su and MiGs. You still act like Russia has as many operative Su-27s as we have F-22s.

No you wont. The US wont fly a mission With their F-22 form the US to fight a air Battle in the EU.

Not even the B2 will be of any use in this Battle. It will be brought Down before it can deliver it medium range missiles.
If it does get it short range missiles away the S400 and S500 will take them Down. Or THe panzir or Tor will do the job.

If you are so sure of what the US will do then why are you debating? Maybe, you need to work at the Pentagon with your great understanding of how our military functions. They do hire civilians from time to time but they usually have an extensive military background.

Do you really think it matters if i had worked at Pentagon. Do you know how this Works at all???
Have you ever been in a conversation With a ranked officer ever??? Its not easy to talke sense to these People at all. It is all about the rank in this Field.

Its like if you have a good idea you will be looked upeon as a idiot. If you have a idea that is according to their understanding and view....you get a pat on the sholder. And they say you are a Bright soldier.

There are nothing but big ass kisser in the military......just like in every major Corporation. If you dont have the rank you dont have a Bright mind or a say in anything.....all you get to do is agree.

Did I ever talk with a "ranked officer"? What do you consider a ranked officer? A brigade commander or a division commander perhaps. How about a member of the joint chiefs? What rank are talking about? A major, lieutenant colonel or a full colonel, how about a brigadier general?

All the military cares about is success in performance of your assigned duties. You must be one who thinks they are always right with no track record. I have seen many people like this before. I play "Call of Duty" so I know more than soldiers who have done the real thing. This is where you are coming from!

BTW, my grandson has shot down 10 Su-35s with his P-51 Mustang in his program. He knows where the cheats are but there's no such thing in the real world.

originally posted by: buddah6
BTW, my grandson has shot down 10 Su-35s with his P-51 Mustang in his program. He knows where the cheats are but there's no such thing in the real world.

He needed the cheats? Damn...just give me the cup holder!

All the military cares about is success in performance of your assigned duties.

The weak link in the 'US might' chain isn't the military. But, it is there and that link continues to get weaker.

Russia has brilliant scientist and technology know how. What they lack is manufacturing processes to make it reliable. They also lack cash to make very many of anything. They may have the Best Fighter on planet earth at some point but they can only build 10 and have to use 7 to get 3 airborne.

a reply to: Xeven

Good points. Plus we probably buy their best scientists and have them work for us.

a reply to: peck420

A lot of what they got was design related, not systems. Yes they got a lot, but there's a ton of information that's still out there no one has gotten close to.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: peck420

A lot of what they got was design related, not systems. Yes they got a lot, but there's a ton of information that's still out there no one has gotten close to.

You want anything in Russia you buy it. There is nothing not for sale in Russia. They want specs for say the latest fighter they buy it. Russia is an open book China a complete diffrent animal you actually have to spy on them. Lol

a reply to: peck420

The weak link lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Most have no idea how to use the military. We are not policeman, nation builders or peacekeepers. The military breaks things and kills the enemy. When the civilians impose rules of engagement that tie our hands behind our backs then that's the first step to defeat. They want to fight a war that makes them look compassionate...all this does is to increase the American body count. The military should have a switch marked start and stop with nothing in between.

originally posted by: Xeven
Russia has brilliant scientist and technology know how. What they lack is manufacturing processes to make it reliable. They also lack cash to make very many of anything. They may have the Best Fighter on planet earth at some point but they can only build 10 and have to use 7 to get 3 airborne.

Exactly! Logistics makes the world go round. This is a point that the gamer can't/won't understand.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: peck420

A lot of what they got was design related, not systems. Yes they got a lot, but there's a ton of information that's still out there no one has gotten close to.

You want anything in Russia you buy it. There is nothing not for sale in Russia. They want specs for say the latest fighter they buy it. Russia is an open book China a complete diffrent animal you actually have to spy on them. Lol

China steals a lot of technology the US but many times they don't have the technical base to produce what they steal. They have to send students to the US colleges to bring back the science to China.

The one thing China doesn't have to deal with is the environmental nuts handcuffing their manufacturers. Our left wing politicians are almost as bad as having an additional enemy to contend with. China is the largest polluter but doesn't have to comply with pollution standards until 2030 thanks to our politicians.

Weak and strong how and where? If the US stays put I dont think any foreign nation has really the means of force projection to even attack. If the US goes to Russia or China it could get dicey, yes.

a reply to: criticalhit

What is YOU military expertise?
What kind of assault force would be able to hold a city in the US ?
How would they get there?
What makes you think the average American gun owner is as bad a shot as the movies show?
Or would wait for KIDS to get into the PARTY?

Well ?