Denying Ignorance About SETI: It's Not Just About Radio Anymore

Project Daedalus looks doable when viewed next to saturn V rocket but its $100 trillion cost is daunting (estimate was based on constructing the probe in orbit by transporting the parts to LEO at a cost of $20,000 per kilogram). Most of that cost could be wiped clean if we could develop a means to propel objects into LEO cheaply. Magnetic Rail guns with an estimated cost of $1 of electrical energy cost to propel a kilogram to LEO might make Project Daedalus a reality one day.

GREAT thread!

I have learned so much just from your OP, thank you very very much!
I am particularly interested in the spaceship detection model. If ET is visiting us, we should be pointing things closer to home to detect signatures not from earth on earth

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
GREAT thread!

I have learned so much just from your OP, thank you very very much!
I am particularly interested in the spaceship detection model. If ET is visiting us, we should be pointing things closer to home to detect signatures not from earth on earth

Thank you Zazz!

There's is another interesting thing I left out of all of this and that was Gravity Wave Detection.

There are already several gravity wave detectors/observatories around the world. The most notable of these were facilities operated as part of a project called LIGO (Laser Interferometer Gravity Observatory) which began in 2002 and ended in 2010.

These are designed to detect naturally generated gravity waves from objects like black holes. But what if someone were artificially manipulating gravity?

Other gravity wave detectors with better "resolution" are planned to go online in the near future. It is always possible that if someone were using something to manipulate gravity nearby one of these detectors would notice it and the detection would not correspond to any known astronomical event.

That's one way it could be done.

Gravity Wave SETI could be the wave of the future

I had no idea that Seti was still around, one of the first thing I did when I joined ATS was to download the SETI program in my computer, I would spend hours looking at the graphic.

Then my interest deviated from the UFO to other topics and I forgot about SETI.

This was 10 years ago.

Thanks for bringing back SETI and its purpose.

originally posted by: artistpoet
We have also been sending out radio signals into space for 76 years ... which means the star systems 76 light years away could pick up our signals if they had the technology to do so ...

To my understanding, it might be our past "signals" were weak or impossible to spot. However, it might be your point is correct. If indeed the signals we've emanated into the interstellar neighborhood are detectable then any intelligences probably detected them, right? Why not? If they're more advanced than we're they probably should know about us.

Which is why people ask: Where're they?

Maybe we're hard to spot. Maybe they're dumb. Maybe htey just detected us. Maybe there're no surviving intelligent civilizations nearby.

My bet is either the signals are too weak or there's no one nearby of sufficient capacity to detect us and give a response so soon. Is a very real possible there's nobody nearby. We might be the only intelligent species of our capacity in the galaxy at hte present time.

Could it be that it's wrong to expect them to want to contact us as a response? Maybe they've been politically hesitating for the past 50 years. Maybe they're watching us to make up their minds.

Anyway I read the OPs. Improved my understanding of SETI. One way or another we'll eventually find out the truth of what's out there. If we don't find out it'll be because we became extinct before figuring it out. Otherwise, we're going to keep picking at it until it gives us its secrets. Maybe I should say most of its secrets. Could be limits.

originally posted by: glend
Project Daedalus looks doable when viewed next to saturn V rocket but its $100 trillion cost is daunting (estimate was based on constructing the probe in orbit by transporting the parts to LEO at a cost of $20,000 per kilogram). Most of that cost could be wiped clean if we could develop a means to propel objects into LEO cheaply. Magnetic Rail guns with an estimated cost of $1 of electrical energy cost to propel a kilogram to LEO might make Project Daedalus a reality one day.

Or one could construct it from materials mined, melted and milled robotically in space..... Which might be a whole lot cheaper.

a reply to: JadeStar

Eventually. Maybe within you lifetime, perhaps even certainly.

Right now? I don't know that it would be economically feasible. Technologically? It probably is. But the economics seem prohibitive to me, though I freely admit I could be wrong.

For what it’s worth, I imagine that within the next couple decades (could be sooner) extraterrestrial life at some level will be confirmed. As our instruments become increasingly sophisticated/powerful, and our ability to identify and precisely target regional hot-spots develops further, something’s gotta give.

If I had to guess, it seems most likely to me that the detection of biosignatures eminating from some targeted region of space (Kepler-452b, for ex.) will take place first; something highly probable of being biological in origin, and also highly improbable of emanating from a nonbiological source. After fine-tuning the process, and including additional nonbiological chemical analysis, it may be soon possible to make educated guesses as to the evolutionary stage of the detected signatures; ie. microbial single-celled organisms/macro scale organisms/signs of technology, etc.

Still guessing, at some later time we may get lucky and detect repetitive signal patterns dancing around within the em spectrum. If it could be confirmed as emanating from a likely intelligent (un-natural) source, that would be a very major deal, regardless of whether or not we’re able to decode it. Certainly, being able to understand the transmission would be of great value. But not being able to understand it in no way diminishes the value of the discovery in the first place. It’s impact on humanity would be large. Due to the vast distances involved, though, a meaningful conversation wouldn’t be a realistic expectation.

I suspect all the above will likely take place this century, since we’re already knocking on the door.

Now, here’s where things start getting a little fuzzy for me. My fake crystal ball tells me that within the next 200-300 years (maybe tomorrow, who knows?) either advances in exotic propulsion systems, or discovery of some means of navigating spacetime via shortcuts, will allow us to approach, and “effectively” surpass, the universal speed limit. To achieve ftl performance, though, may require we devise some means of traveling with (or along the edge of) spacetime, rather than through it. Possibly something along the lines of an Alcubierre warp drive? I realize there are currently unanswered questions about the drive design. For one, if we could solve, or work around, the exotic matter/negative energy density problem, it would be a huge breakthrough. Although quantum physics allows for the existence of exotic matter, we’ve only been able to generate very tiny amounts via the Casimir vacuum and the squeezed vacuum technique. Quantum laws place tight constraints, however, on the amount of fluctuation energy that can be passed (loaned) from one region of spacetime to another. It may be the limitations are too servere to allow for generation of the needed negative gravitating energy for an Alcubierre drive to work. Another potential snag is that Alcubierre based his drive design entirely around relativistic principles. Should a theory of quantum gravity emerge, it may very well invalidate the drive design entirely. Who knows?

At any rate, I’m confident these problems will be solved, and we will become a bonified member of the inter-galactic hot rodder’s club. This brings me around to the next fuzzy hurdle: As we’re zipping around the Milky Way, how will we communicate? EM radiation won’t get it anymore. Unless, that is, we lay fiberoptic cable through strategically placed wormholes (just kidding! I’m having a stupid fit, OK? sorry...). I just don’t have a clue here. Again, though, I’m confident we’ll figure it out. By my imaginary schedule, we’ve got 200-300 years to solve these problems (or have an AI figure it out for us).

It wasn’t my intent to ramble on so long. And it could be I’m wrong on every count. These were just some questions/thoughts I have. If anyone cares to shed some light on any of it, I’m all ears/eyes. Thanks.

Great thread, JadeStar...

a reply to: seagull

It would probably be economical if we didn't waste so much money on being able to destroy the world several times over at the drop of a hat. Too much is spent on defense, money that can be shifted to better pursuits like solving world poverty and science.

Dr. Harold White's proposed adaptations to the Alcubierre space warp drive concept make it look more likely to be practical at our level of technology. He's had some interesting results with his experiments, which may hint that he's on the right track.
He believes that a simple electrical charge across a ring of capacitors may be able to act in the place of exotic matter, and produce a detectable space warp. If this effect proves out and is scalable, we could be a just a few decades away from practical interstellar travel.

a reply to: Ross 54
That would be so hot, if it works out. There's usually more than one way to skin a cat. I hope Dr. White's onto something. Often times when a solution is found to a difficult problem it turns out to be much more simplistic than originally thought. I do believe the saying, "Keep it simple, Stupid", has a lot of truth to it.

There's just no way to estimate the importance of such a breakthrough. It would totally change our place in the scheme of things. It amazes me the current rate of technological change, and simultaneously occuring within so many disciplines. It's kinda like a modern day Renaissance in the sciences.

Thanks for the info on Dr. White's work, Ross 54. I've been aware of his work on advanced propulsion systems at NASA, but haven't kept up-to-date lately.

It's been a hoot, but I gotta scoot. Later...

PS: Ain't that the truth, Kojiro! We place death and destruction to others at the top of our priority list, leaving NASA to pick up the scraps. It's a downright shame. For me, it makes it hard to have any confidence in how our governments will choose to implement future scientific discoveries and advanced, potentially dangerous, technologies. It reminds me of something Einstein supposedly said in a moment of reflection after Hiroshima and Nagasaki; he said, "If I had known they were going to do this, I would have become a shoemaker."

Suppose we really are relatively close to discovering how to travel the stars. It might be that we're due for a visit from, or at least open contact with the supposed extraterrestrial civilizations in the immediate galactic neighborhood.

They may already know enough about us, to realize what we're up to and where it could be leading. Also knowing our lawless ways, they might want to have some role in shaping the nature of our introduction to the rest of the galaxy.

originally posted by: Ross 54
Suppose we really are relatively close to discovering how to travel the stars. It might be that we're due for a visit from, or at least open contact with the supposed extraterrestrial civilizations in the immediate galactic neighborhood.

They may already know enough about us, to realize what we're up to and where it could be leading. Also knowing our lawless ways, they might want to have some role in shaping the nature of our introduction to the rest of the galaxy.

Like prevent us from making it past our own atmosphere?

What do you think we would do if we had the knowledge and power over another lifeform outside our planet?

We are ready to shoot and kill anything that is different or we don't understand, yet we entertain the idea of barging into another world uninvited?

We are horrible liars and hypocrites that have no right to travel anywhere, until we can live in peace with other Earthlings and we have cleaned our own house.

It's clear, even from our own way of looking at things, that with greater power, comes greater responsibility. In what appears to be an orderly galaxy, we will presumably need to learn to abide by some rules about not exploiting or otherwise harming other intelligent species, if we are to travel to the stars.

originally posted by: Ross 54
It's clear, even from our own way of looking at things, that with greater power, comes greater responsibility. In what appears to be an orderly galaxy, we will presumably need to learn to abide by some rules about not exploiting or otherwise harming other intelligent species, if we are to travel to the stars.

Even just setting foot on another planet, with a viable biosphere, without intelligent life, could potentially kill it.

People imagine interstellar travel being like it is portrayed in most popular sci-fi but when so much as a human microbe, virus, etc could kill all life on a planet (or vice-versa) I don't think you're ever likely to see that kind of cavalier, cowboy type exploration of exoplanets (assuming we ever developed a fast way to reach them).

We'd probably do it with completely sterilized, android like "Surrogates".

a reply to: JadeStar

At this point in time, you're absolutely correct.

Into the rather nebulous future that'll actually see us doing this? Who knows what techniques/technology will be available to prevent such a catastrophe.

On that thought, I should think that a simple space suit-like device would be sufficient, provided a decontamination process is developed to prevent delivering a host of microbes, or bringing some back, which could prove equally devastating.